Cal Club Autocross Forums

That's an big fat assumption. Do you really think people with enough intent to go to the SCCA web site, select the San Diego Tour and/or El Toro Pro, click on the registration button, sign in to the SCCA site, select their events again are then going to get so flummixed that their known oddball call isn't listed are going to simply give up and never inquire? 1 in 100 at best.

Or could it be many of the SK commoners are not serious enough to want to run the tour/pro, and many of those that are want to run a classic class?

Jay W

Kurt Rahn wrote: but a lot of people stop registering as soon as they fail to see their class in the signup list. I hope more people sign up.

Jayson Woodruff wrote: Or could it be many of the SK commoners are not serious enough to want to run the tour/pro, and many of those that are want to run a classic class?

It could also be that the only way to really find out that they're even running the classes at the nationals is through word of mouth. It isn't mentioned anywhere on the website. The only way I found out about it was through reading this forum.

Who locally doesn't find out about national events through this forum?

Jay W

Jeff Stuart wrote:

Jayson Woodruff wrote: Or could it be many of the SK commoners are not serious enough to want to run the tour/pro, and many of those that are want to run a classic class?

It could also be that the only way to really find out that they're even running the classes at the nationals is through word of mouth. It isn't mentioned anywhere on the website. The only way I found out about it was through reading this forum.

Jayson Woodruff wrote:Or could it be many of the SK commoners are not serious enough to want to run the tour/pro, and many of those that are want to run a classic class?

That's a much bigger, fatter assumption.

There are multiple posts on this site that demonstrate that SK drivers have had problems figureing out how to register.

Jayson Woodruff wrote:Who locally doesn't find out about national events through this forum?

There are a ton of people who don't check this forum regualrly and more that don't use it at all.

Jeff Stuart wrote:

Jayson Woodruff wrote: Or could it be many of the SK commoners are not serious enough to want to run the tour/pro, and many of those that are want to run a classic class?

It could also be that the only way to really find out that they're even running the classes at the nationals is through word of mouth. It isn't mentioned anywhere on the website. The only way I found out about it was through reading this forum.

BZZZZT wrong answer.

2010 San Diego National Tour
Qualcomm Stadium

Site Address: Qualcomm Stadium*9449 Friars Rd*San Diego, CA 92108

Entry Cap: 325

Staff Hotel: Holiday Inn* 3805 murphy Canyon Rd* San Diego, CA 92123*858-278-9300* Mention SCCA to get a rate of $109/night.
Site Restrictions: Sound limit is 93db@50'. This sound limit supercedes the sound limit listed in Appendix I of the 2010 Solo rules.

Sound Policy: AS of 3/8/10 please see the sound policy menu tab on the event web page.

RV Camping is allowed in the pit area. No hookups available. A trolley is available on site to go to meals, shopping, etc.

Local Classes: SK1 & SK2 will be allowed to run at this event. To register for these classes you will need to select AM as your class and leave a note to the registrar. You will appear in the AM entry list but will be placed in the correct local class at the event. Please call the national office if you have any questions - 800-770-2055.

quoted from the SCCA website under event information

(bold edits are mine)

Keith Brown wrote: BZZZZT wrong answer.

It's not on the ProSolo event information page. I'm not going to the San Diego event so I never looked at the event information page.

Kurt Rahn wrote:When you're treated like an afterthought at national events, it's not a huge surprise.

That's a chicken and egg problem. If nobody shows up, its priority isn't going to increase.

The fact that SK1 and SK2 are consistently some of the best subscribed classes at local events says it all.

What do you think it says? I think it says that few of the people who enter those classes for local events are interested in the big national events.

John Stimson wrote:

The fact that SK1 and SK2 are consistently some of the best subscribed classes at local events says it all.

What do you think it says? I think it says that few of the people who enter those classes for local events are interested in the big national events.

I'd be interested to hear the logic behind that theory.

Kurt Rahn wrote:

John Stimson wrote:

The fact that SK1 and SK2 are consistently some of the best subscribed classes at local events says it all.

What do you think it says? I think it says that few of the people who enter those classes for local events are interested in the big national events.

I'd be interested to hear the logic behind that theory.

What logic? If you only care about local events then you won't do National ones. If you DO care about National events in addition to local ones then you do them. Simple as that. Actions speak louder than words. So if all those SK1/SK2 competitors want to compete at Nationals they show it in numbers by signing up. It's not like they aren't aware of this for the ProSolo and/or National Tour events.

yup, and it looks like only 7 guys in Sk2 want to run SK2 at the SD National Tour so far.

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:

Kurt Rahn wrote:I'd be interested to hear the logic behind that theory.

What logic? If you only care about local events then you won't do National ones. If you DO care about National events in addition to local ones then you do them. Simple as that. Actions speak louder than words. So if all those SK1/SK2 competitors want to compete at Nationals they show it in numbers by signing up. It's not like they aren't aware of this for the ProSolo and/or National Tour events.

So you're somehow incented to compete in national events even though to do so in a "real" class, you have to spend much more money on R comps? I watched Adrian kick ass in SK2 at the Pro last year and not get to compete in the challenge because SK2 is one of the black sheep. Not to disparage the effort to let us run. I appreciate all the effort made to make that possible.

At Nationals (where they're not making a local concession to the SK drivers), what's the point? You could be Ayrton Senna and you're not gonna be able to compete in class with the drivers on R comps. My point is I believe there's a demand, and unless people get their shorts out of a wad and allow us to either prove or disprove it, we risk losing potential competitors. Allow me to throw this back at you, from another thread:

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:... now, that we have declining membership and participation, we as the region have to adapt and fight for every dollar. Posting about other organizations events draws away from our events (even if there isn't a conflict). Because if someone decides on 1 event instead of ours because of their finances assuming no confict, then we lose them as potential member. We have to adapt to the times John.

I submit that national SCCA events are in the same position. No one can take potential customers for granted. In this economy, how can you summarily leave out people who can't afford to buy r-comps? Don't we (meaning the SCCA) want to emerge from this crappy economy with as many shareholders as possible? What harm does it cause to let the folks who can't afford running on a season of r-comps to participate? Given that I'm not suggesting adding nine new SK/stock classes or forcing all stock classes to drive on "street" tires, I just don't understand the paranoia and defensiveness (not directed at you specifically, Gio) of the people that are so irrationally, and so vehementy against allowing an SK-type class at the national level. Please, someone enlighten me. What is the harm in letting us prove or disprove that there's a real demand? Again, I'll ask, if you don't have a dog in this fight, why do you even care?

Jonathan Lugod wrote:yup, and it looks like only 7 guys in Sk2 want to run SK2 at the SD National Tour so far.

AS 2 competitors registered for the SD tour
ASP 5
ASPL 1
BSL 1
BSP 6
BSPL 1 (and a man, to boot, apparently)
CP 1
CS 6
CSL 2
CSP 6
CSPL 1
DP 2
DPL 1
DSL 1
DSP 6
DSPL 1
EM 2
EML 1
EP 1
EPL 1
ES 1
ESP 3
F125 3
FJB 2
FS 3
FSP 3
GP 2
GS 2
HS 2
SMF 2
SSM 3
STL 5
STRL 5
STSL 1
STX 3
XP 6
XPL 1

Your point being...?

Kurt Rahn wrote:because SK2 is one of the black sheep.

No one is treating anyone as a "black sheep". I'll lead by example........back when all BMW M3 drivers (E36 chassis) wanted a street tire class to play in, they had ZERO options. It was either B-Stock and get smoked by Mazda RX-8s, or make your car undriveable and turn it into a BSP car that had a better shot at competing against the Corvettes. So the ground swell became bigger, the noise became louder, and finally STU became a "supplemental" class that allowed certain cars that had no ST class to play in play. But we had to put our money were our mouth was. The minimum was 25 drivers to be consistent, for those 2-3yrs (2005-2007)

2005 San Diego National Tour- STU/STUL 12 drivers
2006 San Diego National Tour- STU/STUL 24 drivers
2007 San Diego National Tour- STU/STUL 21 drivers

and guess what....I (as I competed in STU), and other drivers throughout the other regions in particular SoPac/NorPac BMW M3 drivers, plus the Subaru WRX STi guys, the Mitsubishi Evolution guys all rallied together, and finally STU became legit, and first year at Nationals....40 drivers STU/STUL

2008 Nationals (1st year STU is legal class) - 40 drivers

Like I said...actions speak louder than words. Go back to the results that I just posted above at the San Diego National Tours when STU was a supplemental class. See how many drivers there were. Definitely more than are showing up for SK1/SK2.

Kurt Rahn wrote:I just don't understand the paranoia and defensiveness (not directed at you specifically, Gio) of the people that are so irrationally, and so vehementy against allowing an SK-type class at the national level. Please, someone enlighten me. What is the harm in letting us prove or disprove that there's a real demand?

Let's say 25 drivers show up at the Tour and Pro here in the SoPac division. Okay....what about all the other regions in the other divisions? If they have 7 or less drivers that tells the SCCA National office that only in SoPac is SK1/SK2 a 'fad', and that the rest of the country isn't really into it. Again...actions speak louder than words.

Kurt Rahn wrote:

Jonathan Lugod wrote:yup, and it looks like only 7 guys in Sk2 want to run SK2 at the SD National Tour so far.

Your point being...?

where is the 15+ im used to seing locally. Especially the SD region. Looks like some look at the $ of entry and think its too much for an autox weekend.

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:

Kurt Rahn wrote:I just don't understand the paranoia and defensiveness (not directed at you specifically, Gio) of the people that are so irrationally, and so vehementy against allowing an SK-type class at the national level. Please, someone enlighten me. What is the harm in letting us prove or disprove that there's a real demand?

Let's say 25 drivers show up at the Tour and Pro here in the SoPac division. Okay....what about all the other regions in the other divisions? If they have 7 or less drivers that tells the SCCA National office that only in SoPac is SK1/SK2 a 'fad', and that the rest of the country isn't really into. Again...actions speak louder than words.

If that's what happens then that's what happens. All Kurt is saying is try it for real for a year (not just as a local specialty class), and if it doesn't work then you can say "I told you so" and we can move on.

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote: So the ground swell became bigger, the noise became louder, and finally STU became a "supplemental" class that allowed certain cars that had no ST class to play in play

Since I only started last November and wasn't around in 2006-2008, can you explain what it meant to be a supplemental class in the way that STU was? Did that mean it was offered at every national event, or just here in SoCal?

Kurt Rahn wrote: I just don't understand the paranoia and defensiveness (not directed at you specifically, Gio) of the people that are so irrationally, and so vehementy against allowing an SK-type class at the national level. Please, someone enlighten me.

class dilution, possibly to the point of falling under section 4.9. or if your argument is that you want to just get rid of rcomps in stock class then you have an even stronger rejection of street tires.

I think the thing that is irrationally being ignored by the SK supporters is when you come up with the total budget to do a years worth of national autox, the difference between R comps and street tires doesn't even show up. you're throwing a deck chair off the Titanic...

Jeff Stuart wrote:

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote: So the ground swell became bigger, the noise became louder, and finally STU became a "supplemental" class that allowed certain cars that had no ST class to play in play

Since I only started last November and wasn't around in 2006-2008, can you explain what it meant to be a supplemental class in the way that STU was? Did that mean it was offered at every national event, or just here in SoCal?

reference STR, which is currently going through the same process.

Jeff Stuart wrote:can you explain what it meant to be a supplemental class in the way that STU was? Did that mean it was offered at every national event, or just here in SoCal?

I'll add a little more to Marshall's answer. Basically, the class is treated just like a National Class except......there is no championship jacket, and no recognition in the history books of the winner of that class during it's supplemental status. And yes it is offered at every national tour/pro solo so that the national office can see the attendance throughout the probabationary period of 2yrs or so to decide whether or not this supplemental class becomes a national class.

Jeff Stuart wrote:

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:

Kurt Rahn wrote:I just don't understand the paranoia and defensiveness (not directed at you specifically, Gio) of the people that are so irrationally, and so vehementy against allowing an SK-type class at the national level. Please, someone enlighten me. What is the harm in letting us prove or disprove that there's a real demand?

Let's say 25 drivers show up at the Tour and Pro here in the SoPac division. Okay....what about all the other regions in the other divisions? If they have 7 or less drivers that tells the SCCA National office that only in SoPac is SK1/SK2 a 'fad', and that the rest of the country isn't really into. Again...actions speak louder than words.

If that's what happens then that's what happens. All Kurt is saying is try it for real for a year (not just as a local specialty class), and if it doesn't work then you can say "I told you so" and we can move on.

Also there's this perception that we (i.e. Cal Club or San Diego) regions aren't trying it for real. They are....you can sign up as a specialty class. If you want it to be a supplemental class.........e-mail the Solo Events Board at seb@scca.com. And that means ALL the SK1/SK2 drivers that want to compete at the National level.

When I competed in STU and drove the car on the street, I didn't street my race tires even though they were ST tires. I had four sets of wheels, street tires, full tread rains, two sets for shaved race tires.

The shaved street tires might have lasted longer than R's. Kinda car dependent. You bought a Mini. We warned you how they eat R's. But overall the argument doesn't seem to have anything to do with streets versus R's. It seems more like wanting to go racing without fully prepping to the ruleset. You can totally do that. You just can't win.

Steve Ekstrand wrote:It seems more like wanting to go racing without fully prepping to the ruleset.

I want be fully prepped to the ruleset without doing any prep work.

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote: Also there's this perception that we (i.e. Cal Club or San Diego) regions aren't trying it for real. They are....you can sign up as a specialty class.

It's not for real until it's nationally recognized (available at all events)

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote: If you want it to be a supplemental class.........e-mail the Solo Events Board at seb@scca.com.

I already wrote my email. Hopefully we'll see SK classes with the same status as the current STR class, because that's what needs to happen before you can read into the attendance numbers at events.

Jeff Stuart wrote:

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote: Also there's this perception that we (i.e. Cal Club or San Diego) regions aren't trying it for real. They are....you can sign up as a specialty class.

It's not for real until it's nationally recognized (available at all events)

Wrong....it's real in Cal Club (Pro) and San Diego (Tour)

Jeff Stuart wrote:

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote: If you want it to be a supplemental class.........e-mail the Solo Events Board at seb@scca.com.

I already wrote my email. Hopefully we'll see SK classes with the same status as the current STR class, because that's what needs to happen before you can read into the attendance numbers at events.

Before you can run (National status), you must walk (Supplemental status), but before you can even walk, you must crawl (specialty class).