Random Thoughts

[Jeff Shyu]

as an anti-union person, i have a hard time containing my mirth..

[Bob Beamesderfer]

as an anti-union person, i have a hard time containing my mirth..

Careful what you wish for. The more skilled manufacturing jobs we lose, the closer to becoming the next Italy we are.

[Jeff Shyu]

i'm a believer that if someone's skilled, they don't need a union.

unions exist to protect the lowest common denominator.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

i'm a believer that if someone's skilled, they don't need a union.

unions exist to protect the lowest common denominator.

Never been laid off, eh? Never worked a blue collar job? Never read about working conditions before unions?

Besides, you're missing the point. UAW goes away, more manufacturing jobs are lost overseas, U.S. standard of living loses more ground. An American economy based on making the crap they sell at WalMart won't be big enough for membership in the G8. As it is, the U.S. economy is heavily weighted to consumer spending, which is dependent on cheap, easy credit, which is a shrinking resource.

[Jeff Shyu]

Never been laid off, eh? Never worked a blue collar job? Never read about working conditions before unions?

Besides, you're missing the point. UAW goes away, more manufacturing jobs are lost overseas, U.S. standard of living loses more ground. An American economy based on making the crap they sell at WalMart won't be big enough for membership in the G8. As it is, the U.S. economy is heavily weighted to consumer spending, which is dependent on cheap, easy credit, which is a shrinking resource.

can't say that i have. every job i've been in, even during layoffs, my bosses have had to keep me on because i made a lot more money than they were paying me for. no, i haven't worked blue collar, but i have read my history books on why Unions were needed. I still maintain that if you made yourself indispensable, unions wouldn't matter.

but yes, back to the point.

america never excelled in mass production, that was always china's deal, at the cost of quality, you got cheap prices (and vice versa). It's simply gotten to a point where the consumers are not willing to pay a premium for "quality". That's the fundamental problem, not outsourcing. you can't build an economy around something your consumers don't support.

i personally think the way to go about this, is to offer massive incentives for outside companies to do business here. America still holds prestige, and even though our labor costs more, the available skilled worker pool is greater than places like china and taiwan. those tax hikes for 250k+? yeah, not very enticing.

america's future is not in manufacturing, it's in innovation.

[John Coffey]

Today I'm spending my time underneath a Mustang cutting out the torque boxes, wire brushing and grinding away dirt, debris, undercoating, paint, and cutting the floorboards and frame rails for Griggs World Challenge subframe connectors. About every 60 to 90 minutes I need to walk away for a break. This thread gives me something to do while I clean the dirt out of my hair, nose, ears, etc... the glamour of the Motorsports Lifestyle.

Anyway, I'm an ex-Teamsters and ex-UAW member I still have my withdrawl cards for both. Won't have to pay the three figure "initiation fees" if I ever go back to a job with those unions. At least when i was a member, the membership was an impediment to Union management's operations. Members were to do what they were told and vote for whomever or whatever the business agent told them to vote for. People who asked questions were later part of a private discussion about being a team player - I was part of three of those discussions when I worked for Orchids Paper, Alpha Beta, and Norris Industries. These were not friendly discussions.

[Jeff Shyu]

having never been in a union, i can't say i speak from experience.

from an outsider's perspective. unions seem like legalized mobs.

[Jeff Shyu]

in the end, i think everyone who posted in here, is more versed in the current events than your "average American", and unlikely to have their minds changed. we're all going to have to go with the 'agree to disagree' routine.

As a registered democrat, i feel more comfortable with McCain, than Obama. i voted and gave money to Hillary though.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

Never been laid off, eh? Never worked a blue collar job? Never read about working conditions before unions?

Besides, you're missing the point. UAW goes away, more manufacturing jobs are lost overseas, U.S. standard of living loses more ground. An American economy based on making the crap they sell at WalMart won't be big enough for membership in the G8. As it is, the U.S. economy is heavily weighted to consumer spending, which is dependent on cheap, easy credit, which is a shrinking resource.

can't say that i have. every job i've been in, even during layoffs, my bosses have had to keep me on because i made a lot more money than they were paying me for. no, i haven't worked blue collar, but i have read my history books on why Unions were needed. I still maintain that if you made yourself indispensable, unions wouldn't matter.

but yes, back to the point.

america never excelled in mass production, that was always china's deal, at the cost of quality, you got cheap prices (and vice versa). It's simply gotten to a point where the consumers are not willing to pay a premium for "quality". That's the fundamental problem, not outsourcing. you can't build an economy around something your consumers don't support.

i personally think the way to go about this, is to offer massive incentives for outside companies to do business here. America still holds prestige, and even though our labor costs more, the available skilled worker pool is greater than places like china and taiwan. those tax hikes for 250k+? yeah, not very enticing.

america's future is not in manufacturing, it's in innovation.

Absolutely the future is innovation. My questions about bringing back manu jobs were more rhetorical, the losses are more or less permanent. China didn't always have the advantage they have now. I lean toward free trade, but I thought giving China most-favored-nation status, which happened about 15 years ago, was a big mistake.

There's no such thing as an indispensable worker anymore. The 60-70 hour weeks I put in on my last job, the 96% MBO bonus and good review along with a raise all meant nothing when they ran their greasy fingers down the column to find the right dollar amount to cut. Of course, I don't do a job that is typically union, so the decline doesn't involve me directly. However, there are trades and factory jobs for which unions are the best defense for the workers.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

Today I'm spending my time underneath a Mustang cutting out the torque boxes, wire brushing and grinding away dirt, debris, undercoating, paint, and cutting the floorboards and frame rails for Griggs World Challenge subframe connectors. About every 60 to 90 minutes I need to walk away for a break. This thread gives me something to do while I clean the dirt out of my hair, nose, ears, etc... the glamour of the Motorsports Lifestyle.

Anyway, I'm an ex-Teamsters and ex-UAW member I still have my withdrawl cards for both. Won't have to pay the three figure "initiation fees" if I ever go back to a job with those unions. At least when i was a member, the membership was an impediment to Union management's operations. Members were to do what they were told and vote for whomever or whatever the business agent told them to vote for. People who asked questions were later part of a private discussion about being a team player - I was part of three of those discussions when I worked for Orchids Paper, Alpha Beta, and Norris Industries. These were not friendly discussions.

Doesn't surprise me. I'm an ex-Teamsters warehouseman. The dicks running Grainger's central distribution center were such assholes that it was the right way to go.

Jeff, unions in the post WWII era were, at first, still looking out for the membership more so than lining their pockets with the exception of the Teamsters, long in bed with organized crime. The real clincher there was when the Central States Pension Fund was caught bankrolling the Chicago mob's operations. The Feds took over; the rising wise guys decided it was time for a leadership change, and Sam Giancana was found with two .225 slugs in the back of his head in his basement. A stolen gun dropped near by. No forced entry.

From then on -- mid-70s -- unions were in decline, leadership got a lot greedier. Members of most unions, big or small, were told not to make waves, as John confirms. I wasn't at Grainger long enough to see what effect there was, I left for another shot at college. My biggest criticism of unions is that they don't stand up for individuals the way should. If there's anytime a worker needs some clout, it's when they stand alone. Karen Silkwood vs. Kerr-McGee. Her union was worthless.

[John Coffey]

As a registered democrat, i feel more comfortable with McCain, than Obama.

As a registered Republican I'm on the fence but leaning towards Obama. I'm comfortable with neither but I don't think this election is very important, despite all the hype. The power of the President is greatly exaggerated IMHO. Congress is the current branch of the three that has the most power.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

in the end, i think everyone who posted in here, is more versed in the current events than your "average American", and unlikely to have their minds changed. we're all going to have to go with the 'agree to disagree' routine.

As a registered democrat, i feel more comfortable with McCain, than Obama. i voted and gave money to Hillary though.

But the back and forth is good. It's the dialog not found on cable channels. I don't expect to change anyone's mind. Introduce a different perspective, yes.

I don't feel comfortable with McCain because I used to respect him. His actions during the past 6-7 years have diminished my respect considerably. Choosing Palin wiped it out.

Now, as someone who spent 25 years in the newspaper business I can be a rather strident critic of any sort of media. Today's irritant is that NPR's Morning Edition chose to spend time talking about a WSJ story -- no less vapid -- about how Palin's shoe and eyeglass choices were seeing a spike in sales. [The glasses and the hair need only some huge shoulder pads to put right back in 1986.] It's right there with when my former employer would put EVERY story about Courtney Love's drama on the local section front. Not on the front page, mind you. No splashy mention anywhere on A1 or the cards in the news boxes or anywhere. So it wasn't even a cheap effort to sell papers. I suppose maybe the city editor thought the section should counter any puffiness toward celebs that might be in Calendar, but really and truly, most readers didn't give a rat's ass. She was only a celebrity because Curt Cobain got real friendly with the business end of Mr. Remington's biggest seller.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

As a registered democrat, i feel more comfortable with McCain, than Obama.

As a registered Republican I'm on the fence but leaning towards Obama. I'm comfortable with neither but I don't think this election is very important, despite all the hype. The power of the President is greatly exaggerated IMHO. Congress is the current branch of the three that has the most power.

I see a lot of power exercised in the executive, much of it hidden from the public. Some of that depends on who's in the Oval Office, some of it is the result of post-9/11 legislation. A lot of it stretches legitimacy in its execution.

[George Schilling]

As a registered democrat, i feel more comfortable with McCain, than Obama.

As a registered Republican I'm on the fence but leaning towards Obama. I'm comfortable with neither but I don't think this election is very important, despite all the hype. The power of the President is greatly exaggerated IMHO. Congress is the current branch of the three that has the most power.

John, John, John.............what are you thinking man? Obama is very charming and skillful at delivering a canned speech making you think he's talking to you personally. His calling would normally be the pulpit except his personality would never allow him to dedicate himself to a cause so mundane. Listen to the words he speaks. He's very skillful at dancing around the issues. There's nothing there except promises for his vision of an idyllic future and disdain for the past. But tell me, how will the promised huge expansion of government and huge tax increases help anybody? His message of change is just MUCH MORE of the nanny state.

McCain is not Bush despite what the dems are trying to promote. He'll be a good steward of the public trust. He hates war. When asked a question, he gives a straight, heart felt answer. Please take note of the difference between McCain's forthrightness and Obama's style of shuddering and stammering while trying to find the right words to walk the fence, or more accurately jump from one side of the fence to the other.

You may not like McCain, but putting the country on Obama's promised course to socialism will lead to a further demise of what made our country one of the best places to live in the world. And don't forget the past. Look what happened when the GOP held both houses and the presidency; rampant spending. And these are the conservatives. What do you think will happen when the dems have both houses and the presidency. These guys never saw a taxpayer dollar they didn't think should somehow go to them.

I've enjoyed reading this thread guys. Sorry I haven't had time to stir things up. On my way to Topeka.

Georgie

[Bob Beamesderfer]

McCain is not Bush despite what the dems are trying to promote. He'll be a good steward of the public trust. He hates war. When asked a question, he gives a straight, heart felt answer.

Thanks for checking in.

Maybe back in 2000, George, but now he and his campaign are puking lies as fast as possible. The GOP convention and since has been another rash of divisive, cynical, personal attacks. Nothing about issues at all. Not Bush? Well, not in touch with Petraeus or the Joint Chiefs' view of the situation. That's pretty close to how the Bush admin as acted.

BTW, it wasn't long ago when McCain ran an ad critical of the B2N, which Ms. Palin cannot worm her way out of actually supporting. It was an ad run during THIS year's primary. As a point of perspective, one estimate of how much earmarks would cost for every state based on the per capita amount that Ms. Palin gleefully accepted would total $4.6 trillion.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

OK, I'm really upset that the MSM haven't covered all the important facts about Palin that are being courageously covered by the National Enquirer. Where are the stories about the affair, one son's drug addiction, the preggers daughter banished from the house?!!??!!

After all, if it was so important to eventually get around to covering John "no longer running for president" Edwards' affair and alleged love child, then clearly all of these "facts" need to be investigate by a news organization that isn't distributed above the checkout stand at the grocery store.

[Jeff Shyu]

i rack up the rhetoric as simply a part of "politicking"..

all personality, promises, etc aside, here's what i believe:

1. McCain is much more of a centralist than the republican base would like him to be
2. Obama is much more left than the centralists would like him to be (me)
3. next 4 years will likely be a wash, where the economy will slowly rebuild in it's normal cycle, as will energy cost, WHOEVER is the president, is going to "fail" statically speaking, because the actual gains won't be realized until the next term.

I'm voting McCain, because he's the least likely person to create waves. In 4 years, Hillary will run again. Obama won't be in the picture, and people will be tired of 12 years of republican rule. In 4 years, apathy will once again set in, we won't be in the middle of any crisis, and Hillary will be able to make *small* social changes for the better, without resorting to sensationalized big changes to get the crowd's attention.

so yeah, i'm planning ahead.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

i rack up the rhetoric as simply a part of "politicking"..

all personality, promises, etc aside, here's what i believe:

1. McCain is much more of a centralist than the republican base would like him to be
2. Obama is much more left than the centralists would like him to be (me)
3. next 4 years will likely be a wash, where the economy will slowly rebuild in it's normal cycle, as will energy cost, WHOEVER is the president, is going to "fail" statically speaking, because the actual gains won't be realized until the next term.

I'm voting McCain, because he's the least likely person to create waves. In 4 years, Hillary will run again. Obama won't be in the picture, and people will be tired of 12 years of republican rule. In 4 years, apathy will once again set in, we won't be in the middle of any crisis, and Hillary will be able to make *small* social changes for the better, without resorting to sensationalized big changes to get the crowd's attention.

so yeah, i'm planning ahead.

I think McCain is only a centrist on social issues, which if he leaves to Palin will mean more government trying to govern people's personal lives.
Obama, despite his seemingly lofty, lefty goals, will have to have stay in the center to accomplish anything across an entire term because it won't take much to swing the Congress back to GOP majority.
Maybe the next president won't succeed by a statistical measure, but if job growth is good, home values are up, that person will reap the benefit.

I don't agree that if McCain wins Obama will be gone. As for tired of 12 years of mostly GOP rule, I was tired four years ago. As soon as Bush strayed off from Afghanistan and bin Laden he ceased to be doing what he should have been.

[Jeff Shyu]

if Obama loses this election in a "heads up fight", there's no way in hell the democrats will support him for 2012. you've got to be on some expensive drugs if you think otherwise.

as i indicated earlier, i'm more of a libertarian than a democrat or republican, so you can see why i would be more comfortable with McCain than Obama, given what you just wrote.

[Curt Luther]

[Bob Beamesderfer]

Like coach said, "Everyone's got a butt, and they all stink."

[Bob Beamesderfer]

if Obama loses this election in a "heads up fight", there's no way in hell the democrats will support him for 2012. you've got to be on some expensive drugs if you think otherwise.

Wasn't clear that you meant IF McCain wins he won't be back.

[Kurt Rahn]

In 4 years, apathy will once again set in...

If we're still in Iraq, I can Guaran-f'in-tee you there won't be apathy. The way McCain is talkin', we're still going to be there next election.

[Larry Andrews]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/13/us/po ... ref=slogin" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[John Coffey]

If we're still in Iraq, I can Guaran-f'in-tee you there won't be apathy. The way McCain is talkin', we're still going to be there next election.

We're going to have some level of troop involvement in Iraq for a long, long time. Get used to it.