Cal Club Autocross Forums

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote: Before you can run (National status), you must walk (Supplemental status), but before you can even walk, you must crawl (specialty class).

Just for my information, since I wasn't around: Did STR run as a specialty class before running as a supplemental class, and if so, for how many years, and what were their attendance numbers during those years? You can just point me to somewhere where I can look it up.

Kurt Rahn wrote: I submit that national SCCA events are in the same position. No one can take potential customers for granted. In this economy, how can you summarily leave out people who can't afford to buy r-comps? Don't we (meaning the SCCA) want to emerge from this crappy economy with as many shareholders as possible? What harm does it cause to let the folks who can't afford running on a season of r-comps to participate?

Those are all good reasons why a street tire class ought to be successful. Unfortunately, attendance in stock street tire classes at Tours, even in regions where lots of people run in those classes at local events, has been poor. I would like to see stock classes on street tires, really. I'm just trying to explain why the SEB might not be interested in officially sanctioning such classes at every Divisional, National, and ProSolo event.

I don't believe that someone who would otherwise go to a ProSolo would decide not to go just because they were ineligible for the Super Challenge. I've been to a lot of ProSolos, and only got into the Super Challenge once. I had lots of fun at all of them. Well, except maybe the one at Fontana where it hailed and the timing equipment conked out and my car was fuel starving during the only dry run session of the weekend. But that didn't keep me from going to the next one.

AS 2 competitors registered for the SD tour
ASP 5
ASPL 1
BSL 1
BSP 6
...

That's like saying "this apple may look small, but it is larger than some of the slices of that orange." You're comparing a class that combines multiple stock classes to run TW140 tires against the size of separate classes that run DOT tires. If you combined SS+AS+BS+FS to create SK1-DOTR, there would be 25 competitors. SK2-DOTR would have 18 competitors. Assuming that all the cars registered for AM are SK1/SK2, there is one SK1 competitor and 8 SK2 competitors.

Jeff Stuart wrote:

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote: Before you can run (National status), you must walk (Supplemental status), but before you can even walk, you must crawl (specialty class).

Just for my information, since I wasn't around: Did STR run as a specialty class before running as a supplemental class, and if so, for how many years, and what were their attendance numbers during those years? You can just point me to somewhere where I can look it up.

No, STR (like STU), were supplemental classes at the beginning. SK1/SK2 are like little experiments to decide whether or not it should be a supplemental classes. Again the reason being like Marshall said is "dilution" since SK1/SK2 really is following the Stock ruleset MINUS R-compound tires, whereas STU, STR are brand new classes with specific cars eligible for it. That's the main difference.

Jeff Stuart wrote:Just for my information, since I wasn't around: Did STR run as a specialty class before running as a supplemental class, and if so, for how many years, and what were their attendance numbers during those years? You can just point me to somewhere where I can look it up.

There's no such thing as a national specialty class so you're not going to find it listed centrally somewhere, but there were regions which had classes for STR-like cars for years before STR was created as a supplemental class. Many regions offered variations on "STS2 with LSDs and not excluding newer cars". Some called it ST2, some called it STX2. San Francisco Region offered an indexed street tire SP/SM class and still does.

John Stimson wrote:

Jeff Stuart wrote:Just for my information, since I wasn't around: Did STR run as a specialty class before running as a supplemental class, and if so, for how many years, and what were their attendance numbers during those years? You can just point me to somewhere where I can look it up.

There's no such thing as a national specialty class so you're not going to find it listed centrally somewhere, but there were regions which had classes for STR-like cars for years before STR was created as a supplemental class. Many regions offered variations on "STS2 with LSDs and not excluding newer cars". Some called it ST2, some called it STX2. San Francisco Region offered an indexed street tire SP/SM class and still does.

I know regions run specialty classes, I was referring STR running as a specialty class at national events. From what I've read, many regions across the nation have similar classes to our SK classes, but as far as I know (and I could be wrong) they're only being offered at the in SD and El Toro national events.

THIS JUST IN:

See my thread on Fastrack:

NOT RECOMMENDED
- Street tire classes (ref. 10-058) Comment: Classes for Stock cars on street tires may be offered at the Regional level. When
a Region hosts a Divisional or National Tour event, it is free to include any Region-only classes which it normally offers,
including street tire classes. The SAC believes that this best addresses the demand for street tire classes at this time.

There answers your question.

Steve Ekstrand wrote: It seems more like wanting to go racing without fully prepping to the ruleset. You can totally do that. You just can't win.

Jeff Stuart wrote:
I want be fully prepped to the ruleset without doing any prep work.

Finally someone just coming out and saying it!

Sebastian Rios wrote:

Steve Ekstrand wrote: It seems more like wanting to go racing without fully prepping to the ruleset. You can totally do that. You just can't win.

Jeff Stuart wrote:
I want be fully prepped to the ruleset without doing any prep work.

Finally someone just coming out and saying it!

So u think ,we all think that way???

Jeff Stuart wrote:

Steve Ekstrand wrote:It seems more like wanting to go racing without fully prepping to the ruleset.

What could be the dumbest thing ever written on teh interweb.

Fixed...

...and the number one reason SK* will not take off Nationally is because most people believe that what Jeff wrote is the basis for the arguement. Laziness. The infamous Cole started it 5 years ago complaining about his bad back. If and when somebody, and props to Kurt, Tom, etc. for trying, comes up with a logical arguement and proposal for this, someone will come and make a statement like the above and blow the whole thing to hell. Every. Single. Time.

Steve Ekstrand wrote:The shaved street tires might have lasted longer than R's. Kinda car dependent. You bought a Mini. We warned you how they eat R's. But overall the argument doesn't seem to have anything to do with streets versus R's. It seems more like wanting to go racing without fully prepping to the ruleset. You can totally do that. You just can't win.

Believe me, the R eating tendancy of the Mini was the one thing that really gave me pause in buying it. In the end, I decided that I'd run it in SK2 locally and never bother with R-comps, and that if I wanted to go to nationals, I'd try and find a co-drive in a nationally recognized class. It just happened that co-drive came along much more quickly than I anticipated, and I wasn't going to let the opportunity pass. I'm all for fully prepping to the ruleset, minus the R comps. That's what I'm advocating.

Jeff Stuart wrote:
I want be fully prepped to the ruleset without doing any prep work.

I meant that I don't want to have to spend money on parts to be fully prepped, not that I don't want to do work. If there was some way I could adjust my camber without having to buy parts that would put me out of the stock class, I would have already done it, but in my car's case, there's nothing I can do. The only thing I can do to my car is change the tires, so that means the difference in price between being fully prepped with stock tires and full prepped with racing tires is a significant percentage.

Jeff Stuart wrote:

Jeff Stuart wrote:
I want be fully prepped to the ruleset without doing any prep work.

I meant that I don't want to have to spend money on parts to be fully prepped, not that I don't want to do work. If there was some way I could adjust my camber without having to buy parts that would put me out of the stock class, I would have already done it, but in my car's case, there's nothing I can do. The only thing I can do to my car is change the tires, so that means the difference in price between being fully prepped with stock tires and full prepped with racing tires is a significant percentage.

Well.. that isn't fully prepped for stock, you still need to buy the multi-thousand dollar shocks.

Jeff Stuart wrote:I meant that I don't want to have to spend money on parts to be fully prepped

These 2 things are mutually exclusive.

Jeff Stuart wrote:but in my car's case, there's nothing I can do.

Unfortunately SCCA cannot create a class for every car so that it can be competitive. It can only create a class for you to "compete" in. So the only option would be to find a different car that is competitive for the class.

Aaron Goldsmith wrote:
Well.. that isn't fully prepped for stock, you still need to buy the multi-thousand dollar shocks.

Or the super lightweight custom cat-back exhaust, expensive lightweight wheels, etc.

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote: Unfortunately SCCA cannot create a class for every car so that it can be competitive. It can only create a class for you to "compete" in. So the only option would be to find a different car that is competitive for the class.

I don't want it to. I'm perfectly happy with how my car (in all of its under-prepared glory, apparently) is able to compete in SK2 right now. I just think I should have the same opportunity nationally.

Jeff Stuart wrote:

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote: Unfortunately SCCA cannot create a class for every car so that it can be competitive. It can only create a class for you to "compete" in. So the only option would be to find a different car that is competitive for the class.

I don't want it to. I'm perfectly happy with how my car (in all of its under-prepared glory, apparently) is able to compete in SK2 right now. I just think I should have the same opportunity nationally.

you can in G-Stock. I think thats where your car belongs...

Jonathan Lugod wrote: you can in G-Stock. I think thats where your car belongs...

H-Stock actually, mine's the very rare 4 cylinder version, rather than the V6. And running in H-Stock just brings us full circle to the orginal problem of having to buy R comps.

And my car has struts so multi-thousand dollar shocks won't do much to help anything.

I think I'm going to give up on this thread now though. Nothing I'm going to say is going to change any opinions. I'll just keep having my fun in SK2 locally, and hope my letter to SEB has some effect.

Jeff Stuart wrote:
I don't want it to. I'm perfectly happy with how my car (in all of its under-prepared glory, apparently) is able to compete in SK2 right now. I just think I should have the same opportunity nationally.

Jeff, you couldn't compete at a national level in that car no matter what! If they made a National class with stock rules and street tires the cars would be prepped to a national level---that is $1500 a corner shocks, $1500 light weight wheels, a $1000 cat-back exhaust, the very best 140+ shaved tires, the perfect front sway-bar, and then a few of the top level drivers in the country (who happen to live around here) would start driving in the class and you would go from top 4 or 5 to top 14 or 15---is this what your really want......

Don

Don Salyers wrote:

Jeff Stuart wrote:
I don't want it to. I'm perfectly happy with how my car (in all of its under-prepared glory, apparently) is able to compete in SK2 right now. I just think I should have the same opportunity nationally.

Jeff, you couldn't compete at a national level in that car no matter what! If they made a National class with stock rules and street tires the cars would be prepped to a national level---that is $1500 a corner shocks, $1500 light weight wheels, a $1000 cat-back exhaust, the very best 140+ shaved tires, the perfect front sway-bar, and then a few of the top level drivers in the country (who happen to live around here) would start driving in the class and you would go from top 4 or 5 to top 14 or 15---is this what your really want......

Don

What I really want is for stock to mean stock.

and when dealing with an indexed class, you will still run into choosing the best car for the class. Whether it be a Miata, Integra Type R (my choice), Mini-S....etc... Then it'll lead to more arguments on how certain class indexes are harsher than others.

In any case, WE DO host SK1/SK2 as a class at the SD National Tour and El Toro Prosolo for you guys. Come out and show us what your worth. SK2 has always been a good class to watch so get more guys to sign up for the tour/pro!!!

Jonathan Lugod wrote:Then it'll lead to more arguments on how certain class indexes are harsher than others.

... and this is why I don't support SK1/SK2 on a national level.

Leonard Cachola wrote: ... and this is why I don't support SK1/SK2 on a national level.

I only view it as a compromise. I'd rather the existing stock classes be on street tires, but there's far too much resistance for that to be a viable option.

Jeff Stuart wrote:What I really want is for stock to mean stock.

The Reverend Luther (aka former Rules Chairman) enlightened me once and said...

Stock is not "stock"...it's a level of preparation of a car

to a ruleset that is. This ruleset (STOCK classes) happens to be the smallest of all the classes. And honestly you posting on here expecting to change opinions means squat. Who you should be worried about is the SEB. They are the ones you need to convince and not just with letters but with actions (i.e. participating in all the national events that you and all SK1/SK2 drivers throughout the country). And if your argument is to change STOCK to be everything minus R-Comps, well that horse has been beaten to death many times over.

Jeff Stuart wrote:I only view it as a compromise. I'd rather the existing stock classes be on street tires, but there's far too much resistance for that to be a viable option.

Tell that to all the high horsepower cars (i.e. Vettes, Vipers, Porsches, etc...) in SS, AS that can't put the power down because of lack of grip! Worse is all the lower-HP cars (say BS) that due to lack of HP can make up speed by carrying as much into the corners with the grip from R-Comps. Perfect example: Isley's experiment in STX of his Mazda RX-8 is over and he's going back to B-Stock. Ask him how much "fun" he had with street tires.

He asked what I really wanted, and that's what I really want. I certainly don't expect it to happen.

I'm already signed up for the ProSolo and still considering the Tour (it's a vacation day issue).

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote: Isley's experiment in STX of his Mazda RX-8 is over and he's going to C-Stock. Ask him how much "fun" he had with street tires.

Fixed that for you!