National SK Class?

[Marshall Grice]

The $$$$$ of your car does speak volumes to how the rules adjust to accommodate change in Stock. If you can afford the $$$$$ (5 dollar sign) hotel, car rental, vacation, restaurant etc., you get some say, and many listen to your wishes.

uh, SS and BS (used to be AS) are HUGE. what other classes in our sport can form their own run groups at nationals?

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

Still, I'm convinced there's a sweet spot here. There are a lot of people being excluded from participation here, and not just locally. I've had a lot of discussions with people all over the country via various message boards, and they're in the same boat. Basically, right now, the entry point is either (a) inexpensive and limited mods with ridiculously expensive tires (stock classes), or (b) inexpensive tires with ridiculously expensive mods (ST). There's got to be a way to bridge that gap and throw a bone to all the people who are not in a financial position to spend like a king who aren't currently being served by the SCCA.

I am confused by this... Can you point to me in the rules where street tires, or even OE as delivered tires, are excluded from stock class? No one is excluded due to tires. And if the newbs are naive enough to think that is why they are not competitive, a rule change would only eliminate the excuse, it would do nothing to make them more competitive.

I ran STX last year after 16 years in stock. I used more tires last year than I ever used in a year in stock, and even had more wheels than when I was in stock. You going to figure out a way to ban tire shaving so I cant show up with new 2/32nds ST tires?

[Nicole Wong]

Still, I'm convinced there's a sweet spot here. There are a lot of people being excluded from participation here, and not just locally. I've had a lot of discussions with people all over the country via various message boards, and they're in the same boat. Basically, right now, the entry point is either (a) inexpensive and limited mods with ridiculously expensive tires (stock classes), or (b) inexpensive tires with ridiculously expensive mods (ST). There's got to be a way to bridge that gap and throw a bone to all the people who are not in a financial position to spend like a king who aren't currently being served by the SCCA.

There is still option (c) ...Co-Drive

[Kurt Rahn]

I am confused by this... Can you point to me in the rules where street tires, or even you OE as delivered tires, are excluded from stock class? No one is excluded due to tires. And if the newbs are naive enough to think that is why they are not competitive, a rule change would only eliminate the excuse, it would do nothing to make them more competitive.

So you're telling me you could get the same times in your car with ST tires as you get with R comps? Really?

I ran STX last year after 16 years in stock. I used more tires last year than I ever used in a year in stock, and even had more wheels than when I was in stock. You going to figure out a way to ban tire shaving so I cant show up with new 2/32nds ST tires?

When R comps cost almost double what R comps do (for my car anyway) you can buy more tires and it's still comes out cheaper.

But beyond that, are you trying to say there's absolutely no demand for some sort of stock-based street tire class? Or are you saying you just don't care becasue the people who want it are noobs and their opinion is not worth listening to? Or are you coming from someplace else? Just trying to understand where you're coming from.

[Aaron Goldsmith]

I am confused by this... Can you point to me in the rules where street tires, or even OE as delivered tires, are excluded from stock class? No one is excluded due to tires. And if the newbs are naive enough to think that is why they are not competitive, a rule change would only eliminate the excuse, it would do nothing to make them more competitive.

I ran STX last year after 16 years in stock. I used more tires last year than I ever used in a year in stock, and even had more wheels than when I was in stock. You going to figure out a way to ban tire shaving so I cant show up with new 2/32nds ST tires?

All points i tried to make in the other thread.

Jason is certainly right, they never made "slicks" legal in stock, it just said DOT legal tires. There was a point not too long ago when all dot legal tires still had tread on them and looked like street tires with soft compounds. The manufacturers just figured out they could pass the DOT test with just a couple circumferential grooves. If you changed the rules for stock, Hoosier would come out with a tire that cost about the same as the current A series but just met the new rules.

Hoosier is also a very large supporter of the solo program so banning them via exclusion would be very tricky.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

So you're telling me you could get the same times in your car with ST tires as you get with R comps? Really?

When R comps cost almost double what R comps do (for my car anyway) you can buy more tires and it's still comes out cheaper.

But beyond that, are you trying to say there's absolutely no demand for some sort of stock-based street tire class? Or are you saying you just don't care becasue the people who want it are noobs and their opinion is not worth listening to? Or are you coming from someplace else? Just trying to understand where you're coming from.

You said people were EXCLUDED because they have ST tires. I was pointing out your mistake, I made no comparison based on performance. When I started I ran my Corvette on street tires in open class. Now we have novice/this/that/tire/you car is white you get a trophy class.

What competitive ST tire is half is much as an R for the same car? Did you include shaving cost - a must if you want to be competitive.

I say there is little to no demand for a Natl ST-stock based class, this is based on the time I spent on the board, and the direct lack of letters requesting such. And yes, I do think you can write off half of what noobs think need to change - it is amazing how much they will learn after then have competed for a while.

You can have my Rs when you pry them from my cold dead hands.

[Marshall Grice]

So you're telling me you could get the same times in your car with ST tires as you get with R comps? Really?

no, not at all. but you can run whatever tires you want, just like you can buy a car that will never be competitive in it's class. we can't support a class for every car made, we can't support a class for every tire made. you pick what works the best.

[Craig Naylor]

And perhaps the $$$$$ guys are educated enough to understand how the system works (they actually write a letter and get their opinion heard) while the $$ just bitch on a forum so they are understandably ignored by the rules makers.

Whow, back up.

This $$ isn't complaining, bitching etc., just answering the question asked. I liked running on the DOT tires, and in the Stock classes I ran, they weren't much different in price (which hold true pretty much across the board in initial cost, but not necessary in life span).

Where I do have a complaint is the re-classing of the $$ cars for the benefit of the $$$$$ cars, and no amount of complaining in writing, on a forum etc is going to change that reality. The number of Stock classes has been addressed many times, and it's obvious it will not increase. Give must take place somewhere, and in our sport it's at the bottom.

I do however feel that a place should exist Nationally for a Stock ST tire class to exist. One way to address the potentially lower subscriber numbers is to combine and index (pax) several classes together like we do here locally. But again we come to that dilution issue that effects breaking Stock into more parts again.

Now so far as the written letter vs. forum.... my daughter keeps pointing out how communication is changing, and I need to get with the "real world". Well, the "letter" has pretty much disappeared, ask the USPS. Rather than forums being "ignored by the rule makers" as stated, maybe just maybe, they should embrace it as my daughter suggests. Maybe, it's not a matter of education, but rather a changing form of communication that the younger crowd with lesser pockets, vs. an older crowd deeper pockets and older communication styles just communicated differently. Nah, that couldn't be it. The $$ crowd's just lazy!

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

The $$ crowd's just lazy!

Clearly. Because it takes so much more effort to take that forum post, copy it to email and press send.

People vote with their feet, and all the low hanging $$ are dwarfed by the $$$$$ classes. Its a wonder why concessions are not made for the minority (vocal and actual minority in this case).

[Kurt Rahn]

You said people were EXCLUDED because they have ST tires. I was pointing out your mistake, I made no comparison based on performance.

I'm also not EXCLUDED from running in A Mod, but what would be the point? All I'm calling for is a place for people who don't have a large budget to participate in national events. I don't understand why this threatens you so much.

What competitive ST tire is half is much as an R for the same car? Did you include shaving cost - a must if you want to be competitive.

For my car: 225/45-17 Star Specs, unshaved: $508, Star Specs shaved to 3/16 depth: $608; for Hoosiers in the same size: $980. No, not quite half, but close enough.

You can have my Rs when you pry them from my cold dead hands.

Again, I'm not suggesting we change the stock classes as they currently exist. Just trying to carve out a niche.

[Mako Koiwai]

Couldn't they have made a STR class for those popular sports cars (Sports Car Club of America!) but limited the mods? Perhaps just allowed front AND rear sway bars, single adjustable shocks, no springs, axle back exhaust, etc.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

I'm also not EXCLUDED from running in A Mod, but what would be the point? All I'm calling for is a place for people who don't have a large budget to participate in national events. I don't understand why this threatens you so much.

Then why did you say you were excluded from stock? Was that an attempt to make your argument look better? Only to have it backfire because it simply points out you don't grasp the rules and overall concept of the stock class.

So the people that can not afford Rs can afford to travel to natls and various tours around the country? I know I spend more on travel every year than any other expense related to racing. Or is this another shortsighted mis by the anti-R group?

It is not a threat to me. Change the rules and fast people will still be fast, and the haves will still have more than the have-nots. You changed nothing but your perception.

Not sure why a few people want to dumb down things to what they can afford. In a down economy the Solo Natls had its second highest attendance. Good luck convincing anyone to screw with that for a few people who would likely not pony up for the big show. The natl stock class program is not broken.

[Steve Ekstrand]

Two observations Kurt....

You now own the worst single example of a competitive car that destroys R's, yet is fairly livable on ST street tires. I guess its just a matter of needed depth of tread on those shoulders. And the fact that the more grip you have the more you are on the front shoulders.

Second, you married up, but she went into education. Tsk tsk.... Jason and I let our wives buy the tires. ;)

[Kurt Rahn]

Two observations Kurt....

You now own the worst single example of a competitive car that destroys R's, yet is fairly livable on ST street tires. I guess its just a matter of needed depth of tread on those shoulders. And the fact that the more grip you have the more you are on the front shoulders.

Painfully true. That's the selfish component of this whole thing. It's not feasible in my car on R comps.

Second, you married up, but she went into education. Tsk tsk.... Jason and I let our wives buy the tires. ;)

LOL. That was a strategic error on my part.

[Mako Koiwai]

I've heard of Camber being shaved into the tire ... is that true ... would that help those mini people

[Steve Ekstrand]

I've heard of Camber being shaved into the tire ... is that true ... would that help those mini people

Now you'd have even less tread in the spot where they cord.

[Kurt Rahn]

Then why did you say you were excluded from stock? Was that an attempt to make your argument look better? Only to have it backfire because it simply points out you don't grasp the rules and overall concept of the stock class.

If I say it one more time, maybe it'll sink in. Jason, I'm not suggesting we screw with stock classes.

So the people that can not afford Rs can afford to travel to natls and various tours around the country? I know I spend more on travel every year than any other expense related to racing.

No, I just can't afford to pay for travel AND pay for ridiculously expensive tires. I'm not familiar with how you tend to travel, but it can be done cheaply if you plan and are willing to sacrifice.

Or is this another shortsighted mis by the anti-R group?

How exactly did I become a member of the "anti-R group?" Deal with me as an individual, not as someone you've lumped in with an evil adversary you've had to deal with in other forums like some paranoid Don Quixote. I have nothing against R comps.

It is not a threat to me.

I'd hate to see your reaction when something actually does threaten you. God forbid.

Not sure why a few people want to dumb down things to what they can afford. In a down economy the Solo Natls had its second highest attendance. Good luck convincing anyone to screw with that for a few people who would likely not pony up for the big show.

Sorry not everyone has the same fat wallet as you or is an editor of a car magazine that allows him to get lots of free goodies. In five years (I assume by then I won't be a noob and my opinion will be worth listening to) I still won't have the money to run on R comps, unless I win the lottery. I guess we're all just screwed then.

The natl stock class program is not broken.

See above.

[KJ Christopher]

What if the question were changed. For what ever reason, 180 treadwear was the rule. It is understood that the national types will come to each event with a brand new set of shave tires and the others would run non-competitively yet happily with their with their full tread depth, drove 1300 miles to get to Lincoln set of street tires. And the classes were realigned so Z06 vettes weren't facing off against the Lotus.

What changes would you want to see to ease the pain of putting down SS/AS/BS/FS and sometimes CS power on street tires?
replace/remove/adjust rear sway bar?
camber allowances?
something else?

[Steve Ekstrand]

Give it 18 years Kurt....
The kiddies will be out of college (or at least on scholarship in grad school) and the PUSD will be long shutdown and Mikala will be earning big bucks working a corporate gig.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

No, I just can't afford to pay for travel AND pay for ridiculously expensive tires. I'm not familiar with how you tend to travel, but it can be done cheaply if you plan and are willing to sacrifice.

Sorry not everyone has the same fat wallet as you or is an editor of a car magazine that allows him to get lots of free goodies. In five years (I assume by then I won't be a noob and my opinion will be worth listening to) I still won't have the money to run on R comps, unless I win the lottery. I guess we're all just screwed then.

I did my time. Drove all night to out of town events, slept in the car and bought used tires. It never once occurred to me ask the Club to dumb the events down to a level I could afford. Priorities, income levels and times all change, you do what you can. Asking everyone else to make a change to suit you, ridiculous.

[Mako Koiwai]

Kurt ... didn't you do fairly well in your first race with the Mini, on oem tires. How come you aren't slapping on some relatively long lasting Dunlop Z1's and running SK2? A third into the life of the tire, flip them on their rims ... after first of course rotating them back to front betweeb events. At the 2/3 rd life of the tire you will be back to even tread ... and then for the last 1/3 they will get chewed up again.

Seems like you would have more fun in SK2 then STX ? Have you talked to Adrian about his Mini's tire wear?

[Kurt Rahn]

Kurt ... didn't you do fairly well in your first race with the Mini, on oem tires. How come you aren't slapping on some relatively long lasting Dunlop Z1's and running SK2? A third into the life of the tire, flip them on their rims ... after first of course rotating them back to front betweeb events. At the 2/3 rd life of the tire you will be back to even tread ... and then for the last 1/3 they will get chewed up again.

Seems like you would have more fun in SK2 then STX ? Have you talked to Adrian about his Mini's tire wear?

Because I want to go to nationals. It looks like it's gonna be a one-shot deal, though. After that, it's probably back to SK2.

[Kurt Rahn]

Asking everyone else to make a change to suit you, ridiculous.

If it was just to suit me, I would agree completely. No matter how much you stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalalalalala", there is a demand there.

[Steve Towers]

My 2 cents worth - I've done SK1 on treads and SS on R's. R's are more fun, and more $$. I race on a tight budget, but if I want to have more fun AND be more competive, I've gotta do R's. It's just the way of things. No right. No wrong. Things are fine just the way they are. Ya just have to decide where your budget and fun requirement meet. No doubt forking over $1400 for a set of Kumho's 3 times a year is painful. On the other hand, I can let the car sit in the garage and not enjoy owning it. Up to me.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

If it was just to suit me, I would agree completely. No matter how much you stick your fingers in your ears and go "lalalalalalalala", there is a demand there.

I will believe that when there is enough correspondence to the SEB that they actually put it out for member feedback. Not holding my breath.