Cal Club Autocross Forums

Michael Wood wrote:Just curious, trying to learn the methodology.

Even the CIA doesn't have access to the algorithm...

The CIA knows.
They keep it in a lockbox along with the location of OBL and the site of the former VP's secure, undisclosed location.

Rick Ruth wrote:
.....I suppose if you're worried about 2/10th's of a second (or less) keeping you out of the hunt for top Index, then I guess you're right, you should stay home. Of ccourse, if you drive a little blue Lotus......

H's & K's,
Rick Ruth

I have driven that exact little blue Lotus. There are 5 different cars in SS that are competitive, each has its favorite course. The C6 Z06 is generally considered the slowest of the 5, but Matthew just won in that too, now didn't he? The C5 Z06 is faster than the C6 on most courses, so blaming it on the Lotus is pretty lame. You need to take the Braun-colored glasses off and realize there is only one of him, and thousands of other SS drivers that are now screwed.

ASP was soft last year (only slightly), but is now simply ridiculous. The tire/wheel change alone is worth .30 seconds! I think you are likely aware from past Nationals results I know a little about Corvettes and ASP. You already know I generally think you do a good job with the index (with the exception of EM, which you STILL didn't hit hard enough, sorry), but this latest version is just not right :mrt:

I've got a good mind to pick up any ol' rickety Corvette and slap PAX around locally

Gary Thomason wrote:
I've got a good mind to pick up any ol' rickety Corvette and slap PAX around locally

But then we just add in the GTI (Gary Thomason Index) to even things out. Kinda like the special TBI. If you notice Tom hasn't been winning PAX all the time lately........ }:)

Steve Ekstrand wrote:The CIA knows.
They keep it in a lockbox along with the location of OBL and the site of the former VP's secure, undisclosed location.

Yeah, Cheney had a copy, but it was unreadable after being shredded by the shotgun pellets.

Rick Brown wrote:

Gary Thomason wrote:
I've got a good mind to pick up any ol' rickety Corvette and slap PAX around locally

But then we just add in the GTI (Gary Thomason Index) to even things out. Kinda like the special TBI. If you notice Tom hasn't been winning PAX all the time lately........ }:)

A couple of factors there.... We have the insanely fast BMWs of Mr Larssen and Mr Sumanyi, Oh... and this Tom guy has not been able to drive himself out of a wet paper bag this year. He definitly got outdriven at Nationals this year.

Very interesting thread, I wish I had input

Is the little blue lotus the one shown in the new issue of Grassroots Motorsports wear # 189ss in the Hoosier ad? Nice to see Christine featured in the same ad.

Matthew Braun= god

I'd love to be alive the day STR can straight time CS. Maybe in 100 years. Good luck with that.

Will and I were taking pictures from the field on the other side of East course while SS ran. Braun went through that turnaround like no other driver. It was a wow moment.

Ken Motonishi wrote:I'd love to be alive the day STR can straight time CS. Maybe in 100 years. Good luck with that.

Drive faster! *whip sound*

Ken Motonishi wrote:Matthew Braun= god

Looking at his results in the Lotus this year, he was just AMAZING...now SS gets to live with his pax legacy

He was fun to co-drive with in the RX8. That was a pretty good year, although I could never beat him two days in a row...right, Jason?

Michael Wood wrote:Looking at his results in the Lotus this year, he was just AMAZING...now SS gets to live with his pax legacy

He was fun to co-drive with in the RX8. That was a pretty good year, although I could never beat him two days in a row...right, Jason?

Did you beat anyone over two days?

I know Rick always thought BS was soft. I am sure it killed him that Matthew did not reset the bar when he drove the RX-8.

I am still at a loss how so many people can get in such a twist over random numbers one guy dreams up. Want to know if you are fast... Go to a Divisional, Tour or Lincoln.

Matthew never really liked the RX8, for some reason.

And, no, I never did beat anyone over two days in that car...I did have the lead a couple of times after day one and had a couple of good day twos, but never put it together...underacheiver, I guess.

PAX is kind of a strange deal. I get that Rick puts lots of work into it and goes to great lengths to gather as much information as possible, but there is definitely some squish factor. Still, it is cool he takes it on and that it provokes so much great competition in Solo...where would our pals up in the greater Backwood area be without PAX??

I agree the cream rises to the top at national and divisional but finding out if your fast equates to car fast and driver fast. This can be pocket book limited. I understand Cal Club used to have a hyundai that the top dogs in each division got to take out to see who was fastest over all car being equal. That sounds like fun.

edit.

Michael Wood wrote:edit.

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Arthur Grant wrote:I agree the cream rises to the top at national and divisional but finding out if your fast equates to car fast and driver fast. This can be pocket book limited. I understand Cal Club used to have a hyundai that the top dogs in each division got to take out to see who was fastest over all car being equal. That sounds like fun.

Yeah, the Hyundai SCoupe was fun. Was a gift from Hyundai, couldn't be registered, had an off road tag so it could be flat towed on the street. Craig Angel maintained it, put extreme camber on the front if I remember so it didn't handle like a typical FWD. Class winners from the previous event got 2 runs after their regular runs. Ran for points for year end Best Driver award. The results we often very interesting, FWD drivers often were not at the top, RWD drivers did quite well.

Car was also used for a Seniors class (50+) with an index based on age and some other stuff that I think Craig made up. Much fun.

Gary Thomason wrote:

Rick Ruth wrote:
.....I suppose if you're worried about 2/10th's of a second (or less) keeping you out of the hunt for top Index, then I guess you're right, you should stay home. Of ccourse, if you drive a little blue Lotus......

H's & K's,
Rick Ruth

I have driven that exact little blue Lotus. There are 5 different cars in SS that are competitive, each has its favorite course. The C6 Z06 is generally considered the slowest of the 5, but Matthew just won in that too, now didn't he? The C5 Z06 is faster than the C6 on most courses, so blaming it on the Lotus is pretty lame. You need to take the Braun-colored glasses off and realize there is only one of him, and thousands of other SS drivers that are now screwed.

ASP was soft last year (only slightly), but is now simply ridiculous. The tire/wheel change alone is worth .30 seconds! I think you are likely aware from past Nationals results I know a little about Corvettes and ASP. You already know I generally think you do a good job with the index (with the exception of EM, which you STILL didn't hit hard enough, sorry), but this latest version is just not right :mrt:

I've got a good mind to pick up any ol' rickety Corvette and slap PAX around locally

Gary, I only look at around 1600 sets of results a year. This year (and last), I just have not seen that guys are able to improve cars very much when they go to ASP. If all of you Super stock guys were only .2 seconds off of top index each time, you may have a point, but the .2 shift for 2011 isn't going to make much difference. So, go grab that "rickety Corvette" and show me I'm wrong.

I hope everyoe haas a safe and great Holiday Season,
Rick Ruth

Rick Ruth wrote: So, go grab that "rickety Corvette" and show me I'm wrong

I'm predicting a Porsche Turbo is going to be re-setting the ASP index next year.

Eric Clements on 22 Nov 2010 08:52
I'm predicting a Porsche Turbo is going to be re-setting the ASP index next year.

Yea, rumor has it that our friend from Arizona (think DSP) will be piloting one of those 500 hp, AWD, dual clutch 7 speed, launch control, differential braking monsters next season. Rumor...........?

Steve Towers wrote:

Eric Clements on 22 Nov 2010 08:52
I'm predicting a Porsche Turbo is going to be re-setting the ASP index next year.

Yea, rumor has it that our friend from Arizona (think DSP) will be piloting one of those 500 hp, AWD, dual clutch 7 speed, launch control, differential braking monsters next season. Rumor...........?

A monster for sure....we tested one recently and it equalled the Bugatti Veyron to 60 mph (2.6 sec.!) but it "only" did 10.7 sec. in the quarter mile (!!!). Just the ticket for those ProSolo launches.

Rick Ruth wrote:
Gary, I only look at around 1600 sets of results a year. This year (and last), I just have not seen that guys are able to improve cars very much when they go to ASP. If all of you Super stock guys were only .2 seconds off of top index each time, you may have a point, but the .2 shift for 2011 isn't going to make much difference. So, go grab that "rickety Corvette" and show me I'm wrong.
Rick Ruth

Rick,
I've already done so. The last time I drove in ASP at a big event is shown below, and the result was by no means unusual when I was running that particular car. Back then, ASP Corvettes had to beat SS Corvettes by 0.72 per 60 seconds, so roughly 1.2 per 95 seconds. I think you will agree that Salerno and Strelnieks are elite drivers, and certainly more than equal to myself any day of the week. No weather was involved, and we ran on the same days under similar conditions. Yes, this was a long time ago, but nothing has changed in the SS Z06 since then. To postulate that ASP Corvettes have gone backwards in development in the last 6 years is completely unrealistic, and in fact, I know just the opposite to be true. And yes number 2, the Elise is generally a little faster than the SS Corvette on many courses, but as I have explained earlier, that difference is small, and well within the noise of driver skill differences even at the very top of the class.

Locally, I get the pleasure of competing in PAX against the likes of Berry (and Grice), Heitkotter, Doganis, Kiesel, Beutzer, Schenker, Peters, and on and on. I'd put those names against anyone, and if you don't think 2 tenths is much to worry about....well, in that group you are talking a difference of winning and 5th place. You can say that SS deserves that index because of Braun's outstanding performance this year, but then you fail, again, to treat EM in the same manner. Sorry, but the inconsistency is obvious :unimpressed:

From what I've heard, the ASP Porsche won't be an all-out effort. Can't say I blame the owner - who wants to destroy an expensive car like that? Still, at a Pro this will be a formidable car for sure, especially with Brian driving it.

2004 SCCA Solo National Championships -- PAX/RTP Results

Rank __Driver ____Vehicle _________Class _ Factor __Indexed __ Actual
1 Gary Thomason_99 Chev Corvette__ASP__(0.848)___79.101___93.279
2 Harold Olsen ___96 Corvette ______BSP_ (0.839) __ 79.354___ 94.582
3 Chuck Sample__ 02 BBR Shark_____AM__(1.000) __ 79.395___ 79.395
4 Tim Aro_______ 02 Toyota MR2___ CSP_ (0.837) __ 79.405___ 94.868
5 George Doganis_94 Mazda Miata ___CSP _(0.837) __ 79.538 ___95.028
6 Derek Butts ____01 Lexus Is 300 ___DSP _(0.819) __ 79.678 ___97.287
7 Stacey Molleker_04 Chevy Z06 _____SS _ (0.836) __ 79.744 ___95.388
8 Pat Salerno ____02 Chevy Z06 _____SS _ (0.836) __ 79.766 ___95.414
9 Erik Strelnieks __04 Chevy Z06 ____ SS _ (0.836) __ 79.806____95.462
10 Tom Berry ____ 96 Chevy Corv____ BSP_(0.839) __ 79.846___ 95.168

sorry if I mangled anybody's name ...

Gary Thomason wrote:

Rick Ruth wrote:
Locally, I get the pleasure of competing in PAX against the likes of Berry (and Grice), Heitkotter, Doganis, Kiesel, Beutzer, Schenker, Peters, and on and on. I'd put those names against anyone, and if you don't think 2 tenths is much to worry about....well, in that group you are talking a difference of winning and 5th place. You can say that SS deserves that index because of Braun's outstanding performance this year, but then you fail, again, to treat EM in the same manner. Sorry, but the inconsistency is obvious :unimpressed:

sorry if I mangled anybody's name ...

mangled?! I can't see how you spelled my name "on and on"!?

Aaron Goldsmith wrote:
mangled?! I can't see how you spelled my name "on and on"!?

I was wondering who would be first to bring this up: Rhoades, Motonishi, Simanyi, Larsson, Uyeda??...and we have a winner, Aaron! :gpower:

Anyway Rick, I am just venting about what I see as a questionable situation in the index. I've already said too much, and I do feel better now getting that off my chest. It is what it is, and I'll either spend the $15k to convert my GT3 for ASP with the easy index, or take my Matthew-lumps in SS.

No worries.