NOTLD's Future: The Discussion and Poll

[Bob Beamesderfer]

The SCNAX Cup was NEVER a championship, simply an adjunct to a two-day practice.

Glenn, the Divisional was a local points event and was always going to be a local points event for CalClub; it is a standard, daylight, 3 runs, 2-second cone penalty Solo event, thus it is not "different." We haven't done Cone Fest in five years, and at the time the argument was always "this is what we have drops for."

In the here and now, going forward we have one event that has a major difference and that's NOTLD.

There was a lot of talk about the Divisional being a two day, one day and no points day but you knew that since you were on the committee and the Divisional is run much more formal which is different from just another Regional but you knew that too.

I don't think anybody seriously considered it for non-points status. And in the end, it was two separate regional championships, and thus is not "another different event" that doesn't count toward points. As for formality, I wouldn't say it was "much more" formal at all. We had an in-grid impound period, which isn't that big a deal.

[Jayson Woodruff]

How many "different" events do we have outside of NOTLD? None, as far as I can tell.

the Divisional was a local points event and was always going to be a local points event for CalClub; it is a standard, daylight, 3 runs, 2-second cone penalty Solo event, thus it is not "different." We haven't done Cone Fest in five years, and at the time the argument was always "this is what we have drops for."

In the here and now, going forward we have one event that has a major difference and that's NOTLD.

Now that's just rationalization. Of course Buttonwillow was and the Divisional is 'different'. We've also held several 4-run 'normal' events. I'd argue to say the Div was way more different from our normal regional events than the NOTLD is.

Jay W

[Bob Beamesderfer]

How many "different" events do we have outside of NOTLD? None, as far as I can tell.

the Divisional was a local points event and was always going to be a local points event for CalClub; it is a standard, daylight, 3 runs, 2-second cone penalty Solo event, thus it is not "different." We haven't done Cone Fest in five years, and at the time the argument was always "this is what we have drops for."

In the here and now, going forward we have one event that has a major difference and that's NOTLD.

Now that's just rationalization. Of course Buttonwillow was and the Divisional is 'different'. We've also held several 4-run 'normal' events. I'd argue to say the Div was way more different from our normal regional events than the NOTLD is.

Jay W

Doug's concern is about how many more "different" events we'll have that are non-points. Right now we don't have any. We haven't for several years.

So if NOTLD becomes a non-points event it will be the only event, "different" or otherwise, that doesn't count for the year-end championship.

Argue the semantics of how "different" the divisional was all you want, but it was a points event, that makes it irrelevant to Doug's argument. Hardly a rationalization.

[Glenn Duensing]

How many "different" events do we have outside of NOTLD? None, as far as I can tell.

the Divisional was a local points event and was always going to be a local points event for CalClub; it is a standard, daylight, 3 runs, 2-second cone penalty Solo event, thus it is not "different." We haven't done Cone Fest in five years, and at the time the argument was always "this is what we have drops for."

In the here and now, going forward we have one event that has a major difference and that's NOTLD.

Now that's just rationalization. Of course Buttonwillow was and the Divisional is 'different'. We've also held several 4-run 'normal' events. I'd argue to say the Div was way more different from our normal regional events than the NOTLD is.

Jay W

Doug's concern is about how many more "different" events we'll have that are non-points. Right now we don't have any. We haven't for several years.

So if NOTLD becomes a non-points event it will be the only event, "different" or otherwise, that doesn't count for the year-end championship.

Argue the semantics of how "different" the divisional was all you want, but it was a points event, that makes it irrelevant to Doug's argument. Hardly a rationalization.

Must remember. Bob works for the newspapers so he must be right all time no matter what. Spin Bob spin.

[Steve Ekstrand]

Helpful....

[Bob Beamesderfer]

Doug's concern is about how many more "different" events we'll have that are non-points. Right now we don't have any. We haven't for several years.

So if NOTLD becomes a non-points event it will be the only event, "different" or otherwise, that doesn't count for the year-end championship.

Argue the semantics of how "different" the divisional was all you want, but it was a points event, that makes it irrelevant to Doug's argument. Hardly a rationalization.

Must remember. Bob works for the newspapers so he must be right all time no matter what. Spin Bob spin.

First, Glenn, I don't work for a newspaper. Second, I'm not spinning, I making my point again and hopefully clear enough for even you to understand. :mrt:

[Doug Teulie]

The divisional is a very different event and I note by having two events in the same weekend it makes that weekend more important to do well and attend. We had to shuffle many classes to keep the local points working. Some could argue about the points but Jay did a great job working out many details this year. Notice that San Diego did not run the Divisional as a points race because they decided that the event was not fair to the locals. Lone pine is a points race? No! Tour is a points race? No (SF ran tour for points one year). Buttonwillow was a points race at one time but BW has been dropped. I would love to go back but that is not a real Auto-x (more like a Solo 1). The NOTLD is an Auto-X that is run in the dark. Dark is the issue that puts NOTLD up for debate. What about having to add more events to cover NOTLD? Even one event is 1/12 of the year.

[Christine Grice]

Despite the fact that everyone else seems to have written it off (except for Doug), I think that saftey is still a large concern for this event. Obviously dark always makes things more dangerous whether you are racing or just simply trying to walk around your house. I think that we have been luck so far that no major accidents have happened at this event.

On Saturday I watched a car almost backup into another car in grid. (luckily enough people were standing around yelling because the car about to be backed up into definatly didn't have a horn.

When I spun through the finish on my 3rd run in addition to watching the timing lights to see if I was going to hit them I was also watching the closest course worker who didn't even act as if he was getting ready to run. There was another run where I was sure that I saw a course worker running away from the course, but it was too dark to know for sure. If someone were to run out to pickup a cone too late in the sunshine I would see them there from a corner or two before, in the dark I can't see him till my headlight shine on them, which would be too late to stop.

I have also heard horror stories from several people of the drive home.

This whole argument of "well you know this event is coming prepare" is very flawed because I have always been a morning person and asking me to suddenly be alert enough to drive late at night is like telling a smoker to just up and quit because its better for them. Some of us do not have the luxuary of staying up late for the week before the event to adjust our bodies to stay up late.

Driving at 1am was not fun for me. I was so tired I couldn't even work up an adrenaline rush (imagine how hard that is in the beast of a car that I drive)

I guess what I am trying to say is that not everyone loves this event. Take something that during the day can be dangerous and do it at night and i can guarentee that it does not get safer.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

The divisional is a very different event and I note by having two events in the same weekend it makes that weekend more important to do well and attend. We had to shuffle many classes to keep the local points working. Some could argue about the points but Jay did a great job working out many details this year. Notice that San Diego did not run the Divisional as a points race because they decided that the event was not fair to the locals. Lone pine is a points race? No! Tour is a points race? No (SF ran tour for points one year). Buttonwillow was a points race at one time but BW has been dropped. I would love to go back but that is not a real Auto-x (more like a Solo 1). The NOTLD is an Auto-X that is run in the dark. Dark is the issue that puts NOTLD up for debate. What about having to add more events to cover NOTLD? Even one event is 1/12 of the year.

Doug, I thought we were talking about regional Solo events for regional points in our region. That would exclude Lone Pine -- only recently an SCCA/Cal Club event and NOT a Solo event -- the Tour and the Pro and whatever SD does or doesn't do with the Divisional.

[Jayson Woodruff]

BTW, we're not unique in this either. Las Vegas goes to night events exclusively during the summer for longer than I can remember.

And to counter the point, I'm not a morning person. I'm way more dangerous driving at 6am after waking up than I am at 3am after racing.

Jay W
505/287 Dakota

[Steve Ekstrand]

Doesn't LVR run there night events in lighted parking lots???

[Glenn Duensing]

Doesn't LVR run there night events in lighted parking lots???

They also rent lights. They tried one event with just the parking lot lights and decided to rent lights again.

AZ used to run at nights. They had 8 lights for the Firebird lot.

Problem is people are saying it's a night event so it should have some lighting. Instead it's a night event because of the heat and the event needs lights.

Last year we had 5 lights instead of the 4 that we normally use. We should, IMHO, have 6-8 lights. We charged $5 more last year and the NOTLD should charge $5 more so we can get more lights. At $5 this year, we could have had 7 lights paid for. We had some help this year with a full moon.

[Marshall Grice]

How many "different" events do we have outside of NOTLD? None, as far as I can tell.

we used to have the scnax cup.

The SCNAX Cup was NEVER a championship, simply an adjunct to a two-day practice.

Who said anything about it being a championship? It's still a different event.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

we used to have the scnax cup.

The SCNAX Cup was NEVER a championship, simply an adjunct to a two-day practice.

Who said anything about it being a championship? It's still a different event.

Yeah, that has never eaten into the number of points events.

[Marshall Grice]

Yeah, that has never eaten into the number of points events.

i'm confused. How does the NOTLD being a non points event eat into the number of championships? are we unable to schedule extra event next year to make up for it, if it were to not be a points event?

[Doug Teulie]

The divisional is a very different event and I note by having two events in the same weekend it makes that weekend more important to do well and attend. We had to shuffle many classes to keep the local points working. Some could argue about the points but Jay did a great job working out many details this year. Notice that San Diego did not run the Divisional as a points race because they decided that the event was not fair to the locals. Lone pine is a points race? No! Tour is a points race? No (SF ran tour for points one year). Buttonwillow was a points race at one time but BW has been dropped. I would love to go back but that is not a real Auto-x (more like a Solo 1). The NOTLD is an Auto-X that is run in the dark. Dark is the issue that puts NOTLD up for debate. What about having to add more events to cover NOTLD? Even one event is 1/12 of the year.

Doug, I thought we were talking about regional Solo events for regional points in our region. That would exclude Lone Pine -- only recently an SCCA/Cal Club event and NOT a Solo event -- the Tour and the Pro and whatever SD does or doesn't do with the Divisional.

I am talking about our region. For now (this year) only the LA divisional was different as far as points. As soon as we all start complaining about one event (like dumping the NOTLD but adding it back as an extra event with no points) it opens the door to start complaining about every event like a rain event or the Divisional. Then you can start arguing about how everyone else does things. My point is THINK about all the ramifications before you start trying to shape peoples opinions. (This is not directed at any one person or connected to any one issue).

[Doug Teulie]

Yeah, that has never eaten into the number of points events.

i'm confused. How does the NOTLD being a non points event eat into the number of championships? are we unable to schedule extra event next year to make up for it, if it were to not be a points event?

POINT----->
If we start making every different event a "non points" event we are going to have to run fewer points events during the year or run more total events to include the extra events. If we need 12 events for points and if we do not use the night event we will need to run 13 events to make 12 points events. Fewer points events reduces the number of through-outs so attendance becomes even more critical. If we start adding more local events it cuts into more National schedules, San Diego events, Divisional, Pro Solo and car work / development time.

[Christine Grice]

Doug, we already set aside the whole thanksgiving weekend for the SCNAX cup and ladies school....

[Doug Teulie]

Doug, we already set aside the whole thanksgiving weekend for the SCNAX cup and ladies school....

That is a good use for that weekend because many folks can't run for points over Thanksgiving.
What does that have to with the NOTLD and points or no points?
Are you saying we can do extra events? I would like to do some local Pro solo events perhaps over Thanksgiving.

[Aaron Goldsmith]

Doug, we already set aside the whole thanksgiving weekend for the SCNAX cup and ladies school....

I would like to do some local Pro solo events perhaps over Thanksgiving.

me too! They do multiple local pro's up in Washington.

[Bob Pl]

When I spun through the finish on my 3rd run in addition to watching the timing lights to see if I was going to hit them I was also watching the closest course worker who didn't even act as if he was getting ready to run. There was another run where I was sure that I saw a course worker running away from the course, but it was too dark to know for sure. If someone were to run out to pickup a cone too late in the sunshine I would see them there from a corner or two before, in the dark I can't see him till my headlight shine on them, which would be too late to stop.

I have also heard horror stories from several people of the drive home.

I had a spin at the finish also & pulled one of the lights off alignment.



As I went to pull back on course, I could see at least 2 course workers flagging the next car. I pulled up to continue to finish & then realized, wow, that car is still coming full speed & I stopped. Finally the driver saw the last red flag before my spin out position on course & whoa'd down.

I'll bet there were more than a couple of "close calls" and since we don't track anything like that event chair, board, sss, whoever never really gets a full sense of what could be called the "incident probability" of the NOLD event.

Aside from whether the poor lighting gives advantage to certain drivers over others, and aside from whether it's points or not, I hope the board does a thoughtful review of the safety aspects of running a marginally lighted course with workers who may be out working course for their first time.

I don't think you have to be an actuary to do that math.

If/went we run it next year how about 3 lights? Then in 2010 we'll go to 2? J/K. For christmas sake charge extra & light it up proper.

And don't take this as a negative to the hard working people that set course. NOT MEANT THAT WAY. I have a close friend in SDR that was run over a few years ago on course (not CSCC or SDR events). He was not in the wrong place, the driver was not a noob, it was broad daylight.

Stuff happens & it's more likely at NOLD than any other event.

Just trying to be constructive.

[Christine Grice]

Doug, we already set aside the whole thanksgiving weekend for the SCNAX cup and ladies school....

That is a good use for that weekend because many folks can't run for points over Thanksgiving.
What does that have to with the NOTLD and points or no points?
Are you saying we can do extra events? I would like to do some local Pro solo events perhaps over Thanksgiving.

If we can do it with those unique events why do you think it is impossible for us to do it with NOTLD? If you are arguing that we can't change NOTLD because then people would want all of the rest of the events changed then how do you explain how the thanksgiving weekend events have morphed from a practice and championship to a Ladies school and the SCNAX cup?

[Jeff Ringer]

ifs considered safe NOTLD does not need to be changed much just tweaked .. making it points or no points i cannot give an opinion on that matter

however we must have a local pro...this is exactly what i was thinking just didnt post it ..

LOCAL PRO El Toro --whenever it works on the schedule this or next year

as large of a course as possible- in my opinion a pro is the most enjoyable solo type event and i have only had an chance to run one in my 16 month autox career

8 runs saturday
4 runs sunday plus the finals bracket racing!!

attendance would be large pulling people from sd and obviously our area.

[Doug Teulie]

Doug, we already set aside the whole thanksgiving weekend for the SCNAX cup and ladies school....

That is a good use for that weekend because many folks can't run for points over Thanksgiving.
What does that have to with the NOTLD and points or no points?
Are you saying we can do extra events? I would like to do some local Pro solo events perhaps over Thanksgiving.

If we can do it with those unique events why do you think it is impossible for us to do it with NOTLD? If you are arguing that we can't change NOTLD because then people would want all of the rest of the events changed then how do you explain how the thanksgiving weekend events have morphed from a practice and championship to a Ladies school and the SCNAX cup?

My (2.4) point is that we are having trouble running all the events we have now without conflicts with Nationals, Pro Solos and San Diego events. Adding even more events will make it more difficult to prevent conflicts. Conflicts with San Diego take attendance from our local events and hurt classes. If it were up to me I would run an El Toro event in August (with the SD region) to help prepare for Nationals. Using up one weekend in August for the NOTLD event with no points is not a good use of our weekends if we need to cram in one more event in for points. Some will want a pre nationals practice event on concrete in the future. Adding extra events on December 22nd that don’t count for points is no big deal because it is not prime time.

[Christine Grice]

So if you had to choose between NOTLD or a test-n-tune/Championship, what would you choose?


(actually, that could be construed as slightly off topic, oops)