Cal Club Autocross Forums

No, I don't plan on towing all the time. That is irrelevant to the gas rebate discussion.

The program is based on a straight average of the EPA city and highway mileage. There is no such rating for diesels.

But an average of city and hwy is going to be lower than the highway claims of Ram owners. I was thinking in terms of 11/19 or something close to that. A combined 15mpg was my best conservative guess. I can't imagine start and stop mileage is that great.

Earl Merz wrote:

Steve Ekstrand wrote:15mpg

So, you will be towing 100% of the time? Irish gets high teens to low 20s empty. Mid teens towing.

I don't think any of the new trucks are getting anywhere near those numbers, although the GMs seem to do the best. Blame the new emission regs, particulate filters, and catalytic converters.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automot ... 30317.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; among others.

Steve Ekstrand wrote:We're looking at getting a majorly big fifth wheel trailer with living quarters and car area big enough to house not just a 13' long 2040lbs honduh, but also a 16.9' long 3500lbs Road Runner.

Honestly? You need to be looking at the F450 or F550 trucks. (Look like 350 pick ups, not 650 city trucks, but have higher rated axles and brakes.) With what you are looking for, you will be exceeding the vehicle ratings on pretty much everything out there. The 3/4 ton SRW shouldn't even be in your inventory.

Yes, I realize the you see people out there pulling big things all the time. But a few years ago when I had the Dodge Cummins, I spent a lot of time looking into trailers and pulling and all that. Most of your big set ups are overweight. And you're contemplating putting a 3500# road runner in there as luggage.

Do the math on the axle ratings, truck weight, etc. It is very difficult to get it to add up anywhere near the limits. And yes, I did help my father tow a 14,000# dozer from Florida to Arkansas on a big goose neck trailer and a 2000 3500 4x4 CTD. (Maybe it was 11k. Serious steel.) Yes it towed ok. Yes it stopped ok (had to leave good following distances). But all it would have taken is a mediocre lawyer with the ability to add and compare to the GCVWR to take us to the cleaners if an accident had happened.

Look at DRW only. Consider the proper, larger trucks. Option it carefully, all the crap you put in it (like 4x4, crew cab, diesel engines) add up quick and take away your payload capacity. And admittedly, I've been out of the field for a good 4 years, so maybe every manufacturer has upped the ante a bunch. But one thing hasn't changed - they always figure the maximum towing and payloads using a regular cab, stripper 2wd truck. (I think I could actually put 1100# in the bed of my truck - 1996 CTD club cab 4x4 - before hitting the max ratings.)

Steve Ekstrand wrote:I think the card is based on 12,000 miles per year and using and average of the city and the hwy mileage ratings.
I see the incentive listed under Ram 3500 but I don't know what they use as a mileage rating.

15mpg would be 800 gallons per year for 3 years.

The latest avg prices published yesterday for California were $4.24 for regular and $5.02 for diesel.

A difference of $2.03 times 800 is $1624. For the three years, $4,872.

I'd rather have a $4500 rebate upfront.

There might be dealer cash in addition to the gas card, but lower-rate financing or a large rebate is a safer bet. When I ran the numbers on the minivan I factored in the either/or of gas card vs. incentive cash. If the bubble price of gasoline deflates, then the gas card loses some steam. If the financing is 0-5%, the gas card loses.

The current F350 dualie is rated at 18,700 for towing a gooseneck or 5th wheel. Dodge 3500 is 16,350. Silverado HD, 16,500. Neither Dodge or Cheby specify hook-up method or number of rear wheels, but it's certainly dualie and goose/5th.

Pickuptrucks.com did an extensive comparison test last year that's worth reading:
http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/2007/s ... tout1.html

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:The current F350 dualie is rated at 18,700 for towing a gooseneck or 5th wheel. Dodge 3500 is 16,350. Silverado HD, 16,500. Neither Dodge or Cheby specify hook-up method or number of rear wheels, but it's certainly dualie and goose/5th.

Pickuptrucks.com did an extensive comparison test last year that's worth reading:
http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/2007/s ... tout1.html

One of the bigger issues is trying to actually get the weight situated so you can get to these maxes without exceeding some other max (like GCVWR or rear axle rating). With fifth wheel trailers, you're shooting for 15 - 20% of the weight on the tongue. And, surprising as it may be, it used to be real hard to find a truck that could easily take that much in the bed, especially SRW. It looks like GVWR have increased too, so it may be less of an issue, but don't discount it. Just want to point this out since most people are completely unaware of the issue. Do the math on the trucks you are considering - it can be very difficult to get the sum of the parts within the whole. You would be amazed at how many trucks going down the road are technically outside of the manufacturers specs. Of course, most handle it ok - it just shifts the liability further from the manufacturer to the operator.

Dodge has a good spec guide for a 4.10 axle 4x2 MegaCab DRW auto.
It gives the actual weight on front and rear axle and the GAWR front and rear.

Tow rating 15,900
GVWR 10100
Payload 3137
Curb 6963 4154fr/2809rr
GAWR 4750/6200
GCWR 23000

The sales guy told me that the 3.73 cuts the tow rating to 13,900 and the GCWR to 21,000. So, a 2,000 lbs hit on the gearing. Not sure how it affects the other numbers.

These are all DRW numbers. I can't find any specs on the single rear wheel option 3500.

The F250 Crew Cab FX-4, short bed with the diesel that I tested last year got about 11.5 mpg over the course of the week we had it. We towed about 5,000 pounds with it from Irvine over the Grapevine and back. That was the only towing and less than half the rated maximum. But, it wasn't anything like as noisy as older Ford diesels, no smoke/soot and barely a whiff of smell. The high-pressure [26,000 psi] fuel rail and twin turbo cut the noise down.

Steve Ekstrand wrote:Dodge has a good spec guide for a 4.10 axle 4x2 MegaCab DRW auto.
It gives the actual weight on front and rear axle and the GAWR front and rear.

Tow rating 15,900
GVWR 10100
Payload 3137
Curb 6963 4154fr/2809rr
GAWR 4750/6200
GCWR 23000

The sales guy told me that the 3.73 cuts the tow rating to 13,900 and the GCWR to 21,000. So, a 2,000 lbs hit on the gearing. Not sure how it affects the other numbers.

These are all DRW numbers. I can't find any specs on the single rear wheel option 3500.

Those look like good numbers. The rear axle can actually support the available payload, but without much wiggle room Having a cab full of people (luggage in the trailer) will change the curb weight a bit, impacting the amount available. But in this example you probably won't be too bad. Depending on how heavy you load you may have to run your tongue weight on the low end of the range to keep in specs. 3.73s would completely change the analysis.

Hmmmm....just remembered a close friend of mine bought a diesel 4x4 (I believe) Dodge 3500/single rear wheels for towing his toys (boats and camper) through the mountains of Alberta/BC and said he was passing cars with it loaded!

Actually I've ridden in it and it is powerful empty....and the ride did not seem very harsh to me...albeit firm. I think he bought it 1/5-2 years ago - new. Quite happy with it....no troubles.

Reijo

Got some info from my first dealer contact....

The gas card rebate for the diesels is based on 15mpg and 12000 miles per year for three years. So, its good for the differential between market price and $2.99 on the first 800 gallons you purchase with the assigned credit card in each of three 12 month periods. 97% of stations accept the card. Its not tied to the vehicle, only the card, so you can buy for other vehicles if you don't hit 800 gallons in a year.

That's about $4800 with todays pricing. Though the stations around here want more than the $5 for diesel.

Here's the cool thing. You also get $2000 cash back. You you don't give up the whole $4500 current incentive rebate. I'd say atleast for the diesel trucks, that the Gas Card and the $2000 is the winning choice. Also there is a $3000 loyalty rebate if you have a current dodge vehicle. And they are selling most everything for straight invoice. The invoices on the trucks I'm looking atleast $5200 under MSRP. So, $10,200 under sticker PLUS a gas card worth close to $5K. And some comfort I guess that if we hit Iran and crude goes to $250 or the refining crack spread for distillates goes to $50 That we're capped for three years on the truck.

14K is the heaviest load I considered. That would be with the Road Runner (which I haven't towed this decade). With the honda in the trailer, I could take 2500lbs worth of crap with me and still stay under that.

So, yeah I crossed the 2500 Dodges off the list. But I think a 3500 will do fine. I guess I'll give the Chevies a look. But I really like the Mega cab. And Dodge has the lifetime powertrain warranty! And I race a Honda.... If I buy something other than a Dodge truck, won't they come repossess the Barracuda and Road Runner????

I'd also like to stay with the 3.73 gearing. I think now that the Dodge is using the AISIN SEIKI 6 spd auto the 4.10 is less important than it was with an overworked 5 spd. Mileage is too important these days.

Steve, I drive a f-350 srw w, Michelin ltx's great smooth road tire. Like someone else posted earlier the new trucks do ride much nicer. 2500 vs 3500 consider braking, either truck will move the trailer and load but what will stop it safely. Lastly, check out a B&W convertaball w/a fifth wheel companion, best of both worlds for the hitch, goose & fifth all in one. The fifth wheel companion is two pieces for weight and when removed no brkts in the bed, the parts bolt in under the bed and you only cut a 4" hole in the bed and the safety chain u-bolts lift up. best of luck.

Scott Kulbeck wrote:Steve, I drive a f-350 srw w, Michelin ltx's great smooth road tire. Like someone else posted earlier the new trucks do ride much nicer. 2500 vs 3500 consider braking, either truck will move the trailer and load but what will stop it safely. Lastly, check out a B&W convertaball w/a fifth wheel companion, best of both worlds for the hitch, goose & fifth all in one. The fifth wheel companion is two pieces for weight and when removed no brkts in the bed, the parts bolt in under the bed and you only cut a 4" hole in the bed and the safety chain u-bolts lift up. best of luck.

That's what I was thinking about (the convertaball) but couldn't remember the name. A friend (who's never actually towed anything, other than a tag trailer, with his similar truck) has one. The only problem with Steve's vehicle of choice is that the Megacab Dodge only comes with a short-bed, and with a non-moveable hitch, your turning ability is limited.

Dodge does make a 4500/5500, but that just makes the mileage worse (4.63 and 4.88 gears), but does up the GCWR to 26k. And it doesn't come in Megacab form (only short 4-door).

Man, you guys in your 4500/5500 and freightliners....

I'm looking at a midsize fifth wheel. There stuff out there 10' longer than what I'm looking at. And although I'm looking for the ability to "move" the road runner. That's a local show or a trip to a shop or detailer where I can always drain the tanks or take out the tools and equipment. The actual tows are with a 2045lbs honduh fatman go kart.

Do you think this would fit in the downtown parking lots???

Steve Ekstrand wrote:Do you think this would fit in the downtown parking lots???

Can I drive it????????

Steve Ekstrand wrote:Do you think this would fit in the downtown parking lots???

Sure, on top of some cars. It worked for the guy driving the crane down an SF street last week. Says he lost his brakes and used parked cars to stop.

Steve, like I said before, 3500 DRW, opt for the engine brake, and a removable 5th wheel. New is great, but if I were looking, I'd go used and get the old 5.9CTD without all the emissions BS. But thats just me.

Steve, this would tow anything might be easier to park than the 3500



'63 Peterbilt on Craigslist for $3k.

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:Steve, this would tow anything might be easier to park than the 3500



'63 Peterbilt on Craigslist for $3k.

And in a few years, after spending upwards of $25k on it, you'd still be hard pressed to get it to pass emissions so you could drive it in CA.

They'd require smog on a '63 diesel?

Found my new truck!!!

Steve Ekstrand wrote:Found my new truck!!!

Won't need the hotel.

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:They'd require smog on a '63 diesel?

So you haven't heard the program ARB is trying to shove through on HD Diesels? Latest form would make all pre-98 HD diesels pass 2005 emission standards by 2009, all pre-2005 HD diesels pass 2007 emission standards by 2011, and by 2015 all On road HD diesels to meet 2011 emission standards. Oh, Motorhomes are exempt from this, for now. ARB also stated in a brief that 70% of all greenhouse gas/smog producing pollutants come from On road and Off road HD diesels engines

So you haven't heard the program ARB is trying to shove through on HD Diesels? Latest form would make all pre-98 HD diesels pass 2005 emission standards by 2009, all pre-2005 HD diesels pass 2007 emission standards by 2011, and by 2015 all On road HD diesels to meet 2011 emission standards. Oh, Motorhomes are exempt from this, for now.

Holy crap Prepare to pay a hell of a lot more for anything delivered by truck if this passes. Every expense they're hit with will be passed on to us.