Cal Club Autocross Forums

Leonard Cachola wrote:

Jeff Stuart wrote:

Kurt Rahn wrote:SK is attractice because even fully prepped, you can still use it as your daily driver.

Oh, I don't know about that. When I had my car working on the uber revalved Bilsteins for all of two weeks last year (loooong story that I don't really need to go into here), my stock-class car was barely tolerable as a daily driver. Usable, sure. Tolerable... um... yeah.

All I've done is put better tires on my car and now I am able to compete in SK2, so I'm content with that. I don't really have a desire to compete on a national level.

All I've done is put better tires on my car and now I am able to compete in SK2, so I'm content with that. I don't really have a desire to compete on a national level.

which is the sole purpose for having local SK classes and why it shouldn't be labeled a national class. If it did... then all those who have the same objective as you...will be turned away. As the ones who will spend the money and get the uber-parts will be better prepped in comparison to one who just wants to arrive and drive.

Kurt Rahn wrote: If we're talking about nationally prepped cars, we'll be talking about DAs, which, put on their soft setting, are going to be less stiff than my stock suspension.

Oh, right. Good point. A set of custom revalved double adjustable Bilsteins would have been quite a bit more than the non-adjustable ones I have, for sure.

Edit: Wow, I guess I should've started a new thread for this. Didn't think it was going to get so lively.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing, actually. Can a moderator split this up, please?

Jeff Stuart wrote: All I've done is put better tires on my car and now I am able to compete in SK2, so I'm content with that. I don't really have a desire to compete on a national level.

No offense, but Kurt was talking fully-prepped cars.

Jonathan Lugod wrote:As the ones who will spend the money and get the uber-parts will be better prepped in comparison to one who just wants to arrive and drive.

Well, that's going to be the case in any class. We wouldn't be turning away any competitor who wants to arrive and drive if they like unless the car is unsafe to drive - that's simply not in the best interests of us as a club or region.

I guess in my opinion there should be a class for people such as myself who have no interest in modifying their cars, but just want to show up and race in whatever they have. SK is as close as you can get to that, but even still there are a lot of expensive things that can be done to gain speed, most of which I don't even know about. I like that SK isn't national because I want to be able to compete (where by "compete" I mean "have a chance at winning") in my car without doing any preparation.

Leonard Cachola wrote:

Kurt Rahn wrote: If we're talking about nationally prepped cars, we'll be talking about DAs, which, put on their soft setting, are going to be less stiff than my stock suspension.

Oh, right. Good point. A set of custom revalved double adjustable Bilsteins would have been quite a bit more than the non-adjustable ones I have, for sure.

Edit: Wow, I guess I should've started a new thread for this. Didn't think it was going to get so lively.

Yes, I was thinking the same thing, actually. Can a moderator split this up, please?

it's kinda a pain at this point, i'd have to go through every page and pull them all out.

I want to be able to compete (where by "compete" I mean "have a chance at winning") in my car without doing any preparation.

QFT

We really need a rolling quotes thingie on this forum.

Jonathan Lugod wrote:

All I've done is put better tires on my car and now I am able to compete in SK2, so I'm content with that. I don't really have a desire to compete on a national level.

which is the sole purpose for having local SK classes and why it shouldn't be labeled a national class. If it did... then all those who have the same objective as you...will be turned away. As the ones who will spend the money and get the uber-parts will be better prepped in comparison to one who just wants to arrive and drive.

That's THEIR choice . and that goes for National class John. Not all cars are UBER prepped.

Why Is it not a good National class when the Same thing is happening in Stock at National events .

Why do we want to limit options At any event.

If it aint broke don't fix it. doesn't work. Adjustments and improvements along the way is what works.

I don't know if this accounts for much, but from what I can see it doesn't seem like you have to go balls to the wall to do well in SK. I'm running single adjusable off-the-shelf Konis, a ST front bar, AWP sway bar mounts, and a drop in air filter. Probably the most expensive bits on my car are the wheels and tires. The RE11 tires I'm running now are actually used ones that came on the wheels (Mako knows their history). As of yet I haven't purchased new tires. I'm planning on doing some weight reduction in the form of a new axle-back exhaust but haven't yet done it.

The car can consistently place in the top 5. No question. Even against DS index vs my CS index.

Is that good for most people? People at nats, probably not. is it necessarily -the- best setup? Definitely not. I know if I were running something closer to what Tim Albin's done to his CS miata it would go quicker. But, I don't want to go that far to get custom Koni 2 ways for $2000 and have them shock dyno'd/etc. also I don't feel like buying a crazy amount of tires every season. It amazes me but these RE11s can pull their weight even after what could be considered their service life. The shoulders are rounded and they're slamming the wear bars. Pretty sure they were shaved.

I don't know if you want to be nats level if you have to be nats prepared. it helps though. Anyone blowing large amounts of cash is going to get the better hardware. That's not unusual. If someone wanted to work the regional level that hard then I'd be ousted by several well prepped DS Minis and good drivers. Would that mean I leave SK for CS? Nah. Would I be bitter? Yea, until I ponied up on my skillset to do better.

It's a tossup. I'd still like to see a Nats class but doesn't necessarily mean I'd be going to every event. If they're doing SK when they come to the region I'm in that works. Travel expenses would probably put me out faster than the competition.

Aaron Goldsmith wrote:The Dunlops were almost 900 bucks a set when we were buying them for Max's car. At the time it was about 950 for the same size 710's and at the time we could have gotten contigency money for 710's and we bought all those Dunlops ourselves. Prices must have dropped a bunch since 2008. Looks like it would be about 800 now. The gap is incredibly variable depending on which tires you run on both sides.

Actually, I was quoting the 225/45-17 size that is about the max that fits on my stock sized 17" X 7" wheels. Max's wheels would've been considerably bigger and more expensive to shod.

Aaron Goldsmith wrote:Either way.. running nationality is not cheap, but it is fun and very rewarding if anyone wants to take that step.

Which brings me back to the crux of this argument. I want to play in the big sandbox, and at this point, I can't for a reasonable cost. The entry level to compete nationally is completely out of reach for a large chunk of SCCA membership, and the problem could be alleviated relatively easily. It should be.

Kurt Rahn wrote:

Aaron Goldsmith wrote:The Dunlops were almost 900 bucks a set when we were buying them for Max's car. At the time it was about 950 for the same size 710's and at the time we could have gotten contigency money for 710's and we bought all those Dunlops ourselves. Prices must have dropped a bunch since 2008. Looks like it would be about 800 now. The gap is incredibly variable depending on which tires you run on both sides.

Actually, I was quoting the 225/45-17 size that is about the max that fits on my stock sized 17" X 7" wheels. Max's wheels would've been considerably bigger and more expensive to shod.

Aaron Goldsmith wrote:Either way.. running nationality is not cheap, but it is fun and very rewarding if anyone wants to take that step.

Which brings me back to the crux of this argument. I want to play in the big sandbox, and at this point, I can't for a reasonable cost. The entry level to compete nationally is completely out of reach for a large chunk of SCCA membership, and the problem could be alleviated relatively easily. It should be.

We have 3 SCCA Nationally fully prepped Solo cars (two SP and one BS S2000).
Ian (co-driver), Kathy and I have stopped going to Tour and Nationals because it is just too expensive.
The fees have gone up, the tires have gone up and even gas has gone up.
We cut our race budget to 1/6th of what it was in 08.

Racing got expensive with the desire to go faster in newer cars.
Newer cars have larger dia wheels and larger dia wheels and tires are more expensive than smaller dia wheels.
To be competitive in most classes you need a prepped (at least good shocks) car and three sets of new tires (don’t forget rain).
You need to transport all your stuff and store all your stuff (rent space $).
Most completive cars are not good street cars or dally drivers (an additional $$$$ car is needed for many).
Tires are expensive but overall expenses have gotten greater as folks push the requirements up.
STS (now ST) started as a popular bolt on modification and low cost tire class. Now the ST tires are as good as and as expensive as R compounds were 10 years a go. Many of the ST cars arrive on trailers with tow vehicles. Many ST cars have rebuilt motors and race seats. Stock class is not inexpensive if you do the math. As SCCA shifts classes top competitors purchase new cars every few years. New cars have not devalued like older used cars. With a new car and the stock restrictions many drivers have to replace all the wheels and other parts that they were using on the previous car. If SCCA had a ONE DESIGN class (like F125) the cost could be controlled some what. Face it, as soon as it is called racing it gets expensive if you want to win at the national level. If you are having fun at the local level and you are not broke you are doing well. Pax is political and would be a real problem as a National class. I know the Pro uses it. Chasing Pax (SK) can get very expensive when you have to get a new car all the time. I have seen many people pull out of SCCA because they did not like classing changes and they did not want to purchase a new class killer car every few years. Pax (SK) will force many people to purchase a new car every year.

Kurt Rahn wrote: I want to play in the big sandbox, and at this point, I can't for a reasonable cost. The entry level to compete nationally is completely out of reach for a large chunk of SCCA membership

http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/389264.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Cheap/competitive
http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/390248.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Salerno's old Natl Champ ES car.
http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/390652.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ES Miata R

If someone wants to play with the big boys and can't afford one of these they probably don't really want to. Here's how. Sell current daily driver, buy cheap Solo car, go racing (if DD was expensive you could also buy a "family" car to haul the kids around in). If you don't own current daily driver sell it, buy cheap Solo car, use extra $ (no monthly car payment!) to go racing.

When we started doing national events Mari was working her first "real" job out of school and I stayed home with the boys, the budget was small. We sold (the paid for) Shelby Charger to buy CS MR2 and sold (the paid for) Audi 5000Q to buy GMC Safari van (family car + tow vehicle) so it doesn't have to cost too much to hit the big leagues.

karts are even cheaper. Any car can pull a trailer with a kart on it.

Real racecars (C-mod Formula ford) are less than $10k. Most any car can pull a 900lb racecar.

Nice STR writeup from last event (hopefully not a repost):
Road & Track - Miata To The Max
http://blog.roadandtrack.com/miata-to-the-max" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BTW, one error is that it says the diff was 0.77 when it was 0.072.