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Bob Beamesderfer wrote:

Arthur Grant wrote:

Steve Ekstrand wrote:I like the NASCAR Road races... Just so ridiculous. But cool to see big generic bricks sliding around. Get to see which of those guys can really drive.

While generic except for the engine and stickers. But what is amazing is that experienced road racers more often than not don't win when the race NASCAR. I believe the series races 4 road courses a year. Juan Pablo Montoya has 2 wins? Sam Hornish Jr. none, Boris Said none, Scott Pruett none, a bunch of others have crossed over. Interestingly a number of the NASCAR boys from the late Dale Sr. to Jimmy Johnson regularly show up running sports car races such as the Daytona 24hrs. Rather successfully I might add.

Really? When did Dale Sr. win the 24 Hours of Daytona? or Sebring? Never is the answer.

I'll take sports car racing over any kind of oval.

Yeah hear ya, Dale Sr. Drove the Rolex 24 hours of Daytona once in a privateer Corvette (2001 before the dominance) and came in 2nd in class, 4th overall. Not bad I would say.

Arthur Grant wrote:

Yeah hear ya, Dale Sr. Drove the Rolex 24 hours of Daytona once in a privateer Corvette (2001 before the dominance) and came in 2nd in class, 4th overall. Not bad I would say.

Didn't he die in 2001 before the race happened?

Jeff Shyu wrote:

Don Salyers wrote:I can count only 9 passes on the track for the whole race.

...this is actually why I don't like the no-fuel-up change in F1, it really took a big chunk of the strategy out of the race. I'm probably amongst the minority on that view though..

I'm with you on this! And on Schumi, too! OMG, are one of us gonna change sides on the political front too?

i'm mostly a contrarian.. so maybe in another 2-3 years..

KJ Christopher wrote:

Arthur Grant wrote:

Yeah hear ya, Dale Sr. Drove the Rolex 24 hours of Daytona once in a privateer Corvette (2001 before the dominance) and came in 2nd in class, 4th overall. Not bad I would say.

Didn't he die in 2001 before the race happened?

Nope, the 24 hour race is two weeks before the 500.

Jeff Shyu wrote:

Don Salyers wrote:I can count only 9 passes on the track for the whole race.

This is a crude comparison, but it kinda gets the point across.

F1 is like chess, NASCAR is like checkers.

when you can go into a corner, trading paint, and basically come out of the corner 4 wide with little to no damage, of course you'll see a lot of passing.
if, however, you touch another car, and your race is basically over, you tend to be much more careful about where, when, and how you make your pass.

Chess may not have the constant action of "KING ME!", but i appreciate the back and forth, the positioning, and planning.

You just don't get that sort of complexity in NASCAR.

this is actually why I don't like the no-fuel-up change in F1, it really took a big chunk of the strategy out of the race. I'm probably amongst the minority on that view though..

Jeff, you know that "however, you touch another car, and your race is basically over" its too bad that Lewis hasn't learned it--- }:) }:)

The last time I watched a chess match was about 1972 with Bobby and Boris and it was more interesting than most F1 races!! Like I said I love F1! I just don't like the racing! This year it has been better than many in the past, but it still is boring. I agree with whoever said "watch it at 1.5 speed". I spend more time watching Q2 and Q3 than watching the race and I bet most (even the racing snobs--Bob, Gio, etc) do the same.

Of course, I watch Nascar, much the same way---fast forward until the yellow appears, then back it up for the wreck---- }:)

Don

i kinda related it to how i feel when i'm out at a track day on the motorcycle.

riding on a stock bike, i catch up to most people in the corners, but once on the straight, they tend to pull away. it's kinda frustrating sitting behind them when i know i could be faster once i got past them, but the pass is really the difficult part.

so, while F1 may be a parade, it's not as if the drivers are happily lined up and doing parade laps. they're still duking it out, and if someone makes a mistake, there'll be a pass.

the cars are just so finely tuned, and skills so high, that passing really depends on someone messing up, or some careful planning. I don't consider that boring, i just see it as part of the sport.

Don Salyers wrote:I spend more time watching Q2 and Q3 than watching the race and I bet most (even the racing snobs--Bob, Gio, etc) do the same.

You're right and win that bet. Love qualifying format! it can be more fun than the race but like Jeff said, it's more about strategy since the cars and drivers are finely tuned.

Don Salyers wrote:Of course, I watch Nascar, much the same way---fast forward until the yellow appears, then back it up for the wreck---- }:) Don

I do this on ESPN watching the highlights!

Guys I think you will find that the drivers in most pro series that don't pay to drive are finely tuned. The F-1 guys are very good, even spectacular, for awhile with all the electronic help wasnt sure, but I wouldn't put them too highly above other series. I really don't buy into the F-1 guys are the best drivers period argument. Maybe the best open wheel, but not drivers overall. This year is very competitive more becuase of restrictions on the tech war, which allow us to see more of the drivers.

But lets remember there have been a number of F-1 drivers that have come to Indy Car, CART, NASCAR including F-1 World Champions and not fared well. I enjoy watching F-1, but lets see Juan Pablo Montoya hasn't set the NASCAR world on fire despite being a CART and F-1 World Champion, but he does claim to be having fun.

Lets see there is Jacques Joseph Charles Villeneuve, former CART, Indy 500, and F-1 Champ that didn't make it NASCAR.

Nigel Mansell F-1 Champ, ran 2 years in CART winning a Championship and placing 8th the following year.

If you remember back in 2004 after a promotional swap between Juan (then with Williams) and Jeff Gordon in which Jeff turned competitive laps in the Williams machine he was invited back by Williams to a 4 day test for seat in the car. He turned down the test. Frank Williams has said he was serious.

Good drivers can adapt to the machine.

Arthur Grant wrote:

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:

Arthur Grant wrote:

While generic except for the engine and stickers. But what is amazing is that experienced road racers more often than not don't win when the race NASCAR. I believe the series races 4 road courses a year. Juan Pablo Montoya has 2 wins? Sam Hornish Jr. none, Boris Said none, Scott Pruett none, a bunch of others have crossed over. Interestingly a number of the NASCAR boys from the late Dale Sr. to Jimmy Johnson regularly show up running sports car races such as the Daytona 24hrs. Rather successfully I might add.

Really? When did Dale Sr. win the 24 Hours of Daytona? or Sebring? Never is the answer.

I'll take sports car racing over any kind of oval.

Yeah hear ya, Dale Sr. Drove the Rolex 24 hours of Daytona once in a privateer Corvette (2001 before the dominance) and came in 2nd in class, 4th overall. Not bad I would say.

Not bad. Used to be guys like Boris Said were only hired for the one road circuit Nascar visited each year.

Bill Schenker wrote:

Jeff Shyu wrote:

Don Salyers wrote:I can count only 9 passes on the track for the whole race.

...this is actually why I don't like the no-fuel-up change in F1, it really took a big chunk of the strategy out of the race. I'm probably amongst the minority on that view though..

I'm with you on this! And on Schumi, too! OMG, are one of us gonna change sides on the political front too?

Not the first time there was no refueling. Same policy in the first few years post-turbo.

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:

Don Salyers wrote:I spend more time watching Q2 and Q3 than watching the race and I bet most (even the racing snobs--Bob, Gio, etc) do the same.

You're right and win that bet. Love qualifying format! it can be more fun than the race but like Jeff said, it's more about strategy since the cars and drivers are finely tuned.

Don Salyers wrote:Of course, I watch Nascar, much the same way---fast forward until the yellow appears, then back it up for the wreck---- }:) Don

I do this on ESPN watching the highlights!

Don, you lose! I watch Friday's Practice 2, quali and the race.

Except for that late race mystery yellow when there is no crash.

Arthur Grant wrote:...
Good drivers can adapt to the machine.

Exactly!

I think today one of the best active drives is Sebastien Loeb in WRC!!!
Just look at what he has accomplished in one of the craziest car racing sports that there is which has very little room for errors, which BTW is why I think Kimi Raikkonen will struggle to be consistent in WRC as he crashes too much...

Kristoffer Gjevre wrote:

Arthur Grant wrote:...
Good drivers can adapt to the machine.

Exactly!

I think today one of the best active drives is Sebastien Loeb in WRC!!!
Just look at what he has accomplished in one of the craziest car racing sports that there is which has very little room for errors, which BTW is why I think Kimi Raikkonen will struggle to be consistent in WRC as he crashes too much...

Long ago, when racing schedules were lighter and drivers had time, many of them raced in a variety of cars. Gurney raced F1, Indy cars, sports prototypes, Stock cars and, I think, off road. He started out in drag racing and ran a car he built at 19 on the salt flats.

Andretti is another who raced in F1, stock cars, sports prototypes and Indy cars.

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:

Don Salyers wrote:I spend more time watching Q2 and Q3 than watching the race and I bet most (even the racing snobs--Bob, Gio, etc) do the same.

You're right and win that bet. Love qualifying format! it can be more fun than the race but like Jeff said, it's more about strategy since the cars and drivers are finely tuned.

Don Salyers wrote:Of course, I watch Nascar, much the same way---fast forward until the yellow appears, then back it up for the wreck---- }:) Don

I do this on ESPN watching the highlights!

Don, you lose! I watch Friday's Practice 2, quali and the race.

Except for that late race mystery yellow when there is no crash.

They wanted to be like NASCAR with the phantom debris.

Jeff Shyu wrote:the cars are just so finely tuned, and skills so high, that passing really depends on someone messing up, or some careful planning.

The aero ruins the racing. Despite the tweaks of recent years, they still can't get right up on someone without losing too much downforce to brake properly. And the aero causes so much grip that braking zones are down to a few car lengths.

Take away the wings and the racing will be MUCH better. NASCAR on road courses is one of my favorites - you can *see* the driving, the car movement, the mistakes, and the opportunities that arise for a pass. I find that much more interesting than X miles per hour or Y g's being pulled.

Arthur ... we just saw a recap of the race. Not sure when you took your photo of the half empty grandstands but what we saw on TV were VERY FULL grandstands during the main race!

Arthur Grant wrote:

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:

Don Salyers wrote:Of course, I watch Nascar, much the same way---fast forward until the yellow appears, then back it up for the wreck---- }:) Don

I do this on ESPN watching the highlights!

Don, you lose! I watch Friday's Practice 2, quali and the race.

Except for that late race mystery yellow when there is no crash.

They wanted to be like NASCAR with the phantom debris. [/quote]

I was referring to Don's fast forwarding until the yellow during NASCAR races and backing up for the crash. F1 doesn't do that.

Will Kalman wrote:

Jeff Shyu wrote:the cars are just so finely tuned, and skills so high, that passing really depends on someone messing up, or some careful planning.

The aero ruins the racing. Despite the tweaks of recent years, they still can't get right up on someone without losing too much downforce to brake properly. And the aero causes so much grip that braking zones are down to a few car lengths.

Tweak? They cut the rear wing size by about 25%. Wings are only part of the aero that disturbs the trailing air flow. Still, drivers can and do get close enough to draft down a long straight before passing in the braking zone.

Mako Koiwai wrote:Arthur ... we just saw a recap of the race. Not sure when you took your photo of the half empty grandstands but what we saw on TV were VERY FULL grandstands during the main race!

Mako,
I was at the track all three days, there were no full grandstands. I wish there had been. I believe that shot was taken about 3 or 4 laps after the restart for the second caution flag. The claim was 80,000 attendance. If that's true most were in the RV's which was full. I have covered every NASCAR and CART / Indy Car race in Fontana's existance and this was a small crowd. An active crowd, and a buying crowd (the merchandise trailers were doing well), but not what you would hope for a playoff game.

Will Kalman wrote:... NASCAR on road courses is one of my favorites - you can *see* the driving, the car movement, the mistakes, and the opportunities that arise for a pass. I find that much more interesting than X miles per hour or Y g's being pulled.

NASCAR @ road courses: Like watching hippos dance ballet.

Wait, didn't Disney do that?

Arthur Grant wrote: I was at the track all three days, there were no full grandstands.

What did they expect, with no advertising of the race the stands shouldn't be full! I live 12 miles from AAA and didn't know NASCAR was coming to town until I got home from an Evolution school to find the CTV in my driveway.

Eric Clements wrote:

Arthur Grant wrote: I was at the track all three days, there were no full grandstands.

What did they expect, with no advertising of the race the stands shouldn't be full! I live 12 miles from AAA and didn't know NASCAR was coming to town until I got home from an Evolution school to find the CTV in my driveway.

And I didn't know NASCAR was coming to town until I put the CTV in your driveway.

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:

Will Kalman wrote:The aero ruins the racing. Despite the tweaks of recent years, they still can't get right up on someone without losing too much downforce to brake properly. And the aero causes so much grip that braking zones are down to a few car lengths.

Tweak? They cut the rear wing size by about 25%. Wings are only part of the aero that disturbs the trailing air flow. Still, drivers can and do get close enough to draft down a long straight before passing in the braking zone.

Don't fixate on the leading car, think about the two-car system. We're taking the wings off *both* cars so any aero effect coming off the leading car does not affect the trailing car in terms of aero-downforce-assisted braking grip required for a late-braking pass. You still get the draft effect for the run down the straight (which IS exciting). And removing the aero lengthens the braking zones, allowing more opportunity for a pass.

The 2011 aero rules are just plain stupid. Now the driver of the trailing car can change the position of the wing if the track detects a sub-one-second gap exiting a turn? Talk about artificially manipulating the game. Ugh.

Bill Schenker wrote:

Will Kalman wrote:... NASCAR on road courses is one of my favorites - you can *see* the driving, the car movement, the mistakes, and the opportunities that arise for a pass. I find that much more interesting than X miles per hour or Y g's being pulled.

NASCAR @ road courses: Like watching hippos dance ballet.

Wait, didn't Disney do that?

They did NASCAR too it was called CARS