Cal Club Autocross Forums

And Max Mosley is like a kid at Disneyland today....

The points race is now a 2 pt margin.
The black kid is no longer a sur thing.
And nobody is talking about his nekkid nazi ass.

Jeff Shyu wrote:first, i agree lewis was faster, and would have came out ahead on the next lap even if he tucked behind kimmi on the bus-stop.

second, what FIA chooses to investigate is their prerogative. should Kimmi have been penalized for blocking? maybe, but the flipside is, would he have needed to block if Lewis didn't cut the corner to gain advantage? anyways, the point is, that's not the dispute here (or is it? are people agreeing that Lewis should have been penalized, and complaining that Kimi should have been too?)

lastly, all i'm saying is that Lewis didn't make a clean pass, gained an advantage by cutting the chicane, kept the advantage without the accordion effect, and made the pass. i personally think it was a legit call.

Even if I agreed with you in principle, which I don't, the penalty does not fit the crime. A 25 sec penalty allowing Massa to win is absurd. Take Lewis to the trailer and tell him not to do it again, wrist slap as in NASCAR punishment.

Exciting racing in Formula 1, no parade, a pass was made and both cars continued to race----this should not be allowed!!!! No passing, no wheel to wheel racing, the message was sent to the drivers loud and clear. Plus don't mess with the red cars...BS!!

Don

it all boils down to personal opinion.

i think cutting the chicane is like a DNF. the person did not follow the intent of the course, and came out with an advantage. does anyone dispute that it's an advantage to not have to catch up to the accordion?

I would agree that the penalty is bull, to take away the victory. if there's a penalty to be given, it should have been assessed while the race was going on.

Jeff Shyu wrote:first, i agree lewis was faster, and would have came out ahead on the next lap even if he tucked behind kimmi on the bus-stop.

second, what FIA chooses to investigate is their prerogative. should Kimmi have been penalized for blocking? maybe, but the flipside is, would he have needed to block if Lewis didn't cut the corner to gain advantage? anyways, the point is, that's not the dispute here (or is it? are people agreeing that Lewis should have been penalized, and complaining that Kimi should have been too?)

lastly, all i'm saying is that Lewis didn't make a clean pass, gained an advantage by cutting the chicane, kept the advantage without the accordion effect, and made the pass. i personally think it was a legit call.

Well, everyone is entitled to you opinion, yours just happens to be wrong.

WTF is accordion effect? What happens in traffic on the street? Kimi was clearly going faster when he passed Lewis after the chicane. Are you saying that somehow Hamilton defied the laws of physics and managed to find more acceleration after he was passed (by a car under full acceleration)?

Kimi looked out of control (under braking) in the corner where he was passed, and both drivers braked too late going into the chicane (you can see tire smoke off of both cars). IMO, Kimi should have given Hamilton the corner in the chicane and tried to repass on the following straight, having a better exit line from that corner would have given him better speed on the straight.

BTW, I could care less who wins, and don't root for any team. Heck, I only occasionally watch F1, but attended the LBGP in '78, '80, and '82.

Cutting the chicane in this case is avoiding an accident that would have taken them both out. He allowed Kimi to pass and gained no benefit from taking the shortcut (other than not crashing). To say otherwise is showing a lack of understanding.

David Avard wrote:WTF is accordion effect? What happens in traffic on the street? Kimi was clearly going faster when he passed Lewis after the chicane. Are you saying that somehow Hamilton defied the laws of physics and managed to find more acceleration after he was passed (by a car under full acceleration)?

i think there's a great deal of difference when you come out of a corner with 2-3 car lengths difference while still accelerating, vs. going 90% of WOT while tucked in right behind someone in their tow. that's just me though.

David Avard wrote:Kimi looked out of control (under braking) in the corner where he was passed, and both drivers braked too late going into the chicane (you can see tire smoke off of both cars). IMO, Kimi should have given Hamilton the corner in the chicane and tried to repass on the following straight, having a better exit line from that corner would have given him better speed on the straight.

they were both on the ragged edge, and kimmi most certainly ran it wide to push Lewis off.

the point is, though, that you haven't made the pass unless you're at least alongside the other car, which Lewis was not. My opinion is complete opposite of your's. I think Lewis should have let kimmi outbreak himself, and did the over-under to pass cleanly. instead, he blew the corner, and came out with an advantage.

I agree with Jeff here. Lewis took advantage of an open chicane runoff to maintain some speed and get closer to Kimi than if he had backed off to slot in behind Kimi and stay on track. Coming out of the chicane, the Ferrari would've been accelerating sooner than the McLaren and Lewis wouldn't have been so close so soon in the straight. You see it all the time when one guy's chasing another and gets right behind the other guy going into a braking zone. If they're both taking the same line (no over under move), the first car always gets a decent lead coming out of the corner.

JESUS-F****** CHRIST! Simanyi told me (before I watched the race taht there was a protest after the race so I was intrigued). Sorry I haven't updated the points (luckily), as it's NFL football season and that takes priority I know I won't hear about an F1 race on ESPN but I will about my Steelers!

What a race in the last 5 laps! And how about my "quick" Nick going for the Hail-Mary (Hero or Zero) of putting on intermediate wets on with 3 laps to go! Passing everyone like they were standing still. If it were 4 laps to go, there'd be a grocery-getter on top! But great 3rd place finish.

Now....as to all the hub-bub is about, YES I agree that Lewis did the "right" thing by slowing down and letting Kimi pass after cutting the chicane........BUT he didn't slow down ENOUGH because if he would've followed the same line as Kimi and be behind him, he would've come out much SLOWER than Kimi thus not be right in the "slip-stream" so suddenly. Had he done that, Lewis would've eventually passed Kimi, because as David Avard mentioned, Kimi was all over the place and driving like Mass did in the wet at Silverstone (spinning, and sliding).

As for the decision, I'm just hearing about it from you guys here (haven't been to Formula1.com) but I can just see the "glee" from the FIA ramming it up the *** to McLaren Mercedes YET again, and gift-wrapping YET another early X-mas present for the machiavellian bastards of Maranello! F1 is now a comedy-show, and not racing.

Jeff Shyu wrote:it all boils down to personal opinion.

i think cutting the chicane is like a DNF. the person did not follow the intent of the course, and came out with an advantage. does anyone dispute that it's an advantage to not have to catch up to the accordion?

I would agree that the penalty is bull, to take away the victory. if there's a penalty to be given, it should have been assessed while the race was going on.

I would argue that Kimi pushed Lewis off line as much as possible, leaving him no choice but to use the runoff or take himself and the Ferrari out.

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:

Jeff Shyu wrote:it all boils down to personal opinion.

i think cutting the chicane is like a DNF. the person did not follow the intent of the course, and came out with an advantage. does anyone dispute that it's an advantage to not have to catch up to the accordion?

I would agree that the penalty is bull, to take away the victory. if there's a penalty to be given, it should have been assessed while the race was going on.

I would argue that Kimi pushed Lewis off line as much as possible, leaving him no choice but to use the runoff or take himself and the Ferrari out.

that's exactly the point.

what if there was no runoff, and there was only a wall. Lewis would have HAD to hit the breaks. He couldn't make a clean pass without resorting to the runoff, therefor, he couldn't make the pass.

Jeff Shyu wrote:

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:

Jeff Shyu wrote:it all boils down to personal opinion.

i think cutting the chicane is like a DNF. the person did not follow the intent of the course, and came out with an advantage. does anyone dispute that it's an advantage to not have to catch up to the accordion?

I would agree that the penalty is bull, to take away the victory. if there's a penalty to be given, it should have been assessed while the race was going on.

I would argue that Kimi pushed Lewis off line as much as possible, leaving him no choice but to use the runoff or take himself and the Ferrari out.

that's exactly the point.

what if there was no runoff, and there was only a wall. Lewis would have HAD to hit the breaks. He couldn't make a clean pass without resorting to the runoff, therefor, he couldn't make the pass.

Yeah, but the pass comes at the end of the front straight, far away from the chicane. I think he could have made the pass even if he'd followed Kimi through the chicane because the McLaren was clearly faster than the Ferrari at that point in the race.

i'm not disputing that Lewis was faster than Kimmi.. never was that a point in my argument.

what i'm saying is, Lewis couldn't complete the pass, blew the corner, gained an unfair advantage, which resulted in him passing Kimmi at the immediate next corner. that's what the FIA call was on, and i think it was legit.

if you want to argue where Lewis would have (it's not a matter of if, but when, at that point) overtaken Kimmi, that's totally understandable. If you want to argue the inconsistency of FIA ruling and severity of punishment, that's totally understandable too. Regardless, it's still my opinion that Lewis couldn't make the pass at the bus-stop, and wouldn't have been able to make the pass at La Source if it wasn't for him cutting the chicane.

One of the three stewards involved is the same man who complained that Sebastian Loeb was too scruffy looking to be on TV back when he won the Rally Mexico.

The man who acts as the FIA's adviser to the stewards owns a consulting firm that has worked for Ferrari.

Both of these individuals are allies of Max Mosley, while another of the stewards was a leading critic of the FIA chief. The third, a locally nominated Belgian, is a ranking official with that country's automobile club.

It's been observed that Mosley can now go to Monza, the first race he will have attended since Monaco, without having to answer questions about spanking parties.

Finally, Niki Lauda, who drove for Ferrari, called the decision "the worst judgment in the history of F1."

ADD 1: Forget about the appeal. The penalty is equivalent to a drive-through, which cannot be protested.

25 second penalty? How exactly do the stewards come up with 25 seconds?

Bob Plante wrote:25 second penalty? How exactly do the stewards come up with 25 seconds?

25 seconds, because that's the time for drive through penalty.

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:Yeah, but the pass comes at the end of the front straight, far away from the chicane. I think he could have made the pass even if he'd followed Kimi through the chicane because the McLaren was clearly faster than the Ferrari at that point in the race.

faster per lap, yes, but not fast-enough to pass Kimmi on just the front straight.

remember, Lewis had been dragging Kimmi for 17 seconds at WOT with some tow, and barely got alongside him for the bus stop. so while Lewis was gaining 10ths per lap, i think it's unrealistic to think he would have taken Kimmi by La Source if he cleanly took the bus stop.

Jeff Shyu wrote:

Bob Beamesderfer wrote: so while Lewis was gaining 10ths per lap, i think it's unrealistic to think he would have taken Kimmi by La Source if he cleanly took the bus stop.

10ths per lap was during the dry. by the chicane incident, it was raining. if you looked at what happened after the chicane, there are obviously more than a few seconds of difference as both cars were losing control and sliding everywhere (with Lewis having a little more control in the wet).

Jeff Shyu wrote:i'm not disputing that Lewis was faster than Kimmi.. never was that a point in my argument.

what i'm saying is, Lewis couldn't complete the pass, blew the corner, gained an unfair advantage, which resulted in him passing Kimmi at the immediate next corner. that's what the FIA call was on, and i think it was legit.

if you want to argue where Lewis would have (it's not a matter of if, but when, at that point) overtaken Kimmi, that's totally understandable. If you want to argue the inconsistency of FIA ruling and severity of punishment, that's totally understandable too. Regardless, it's still my opinion that Lewis couldn't make the pass at the bus-stop, and wouldn't have been able to make the pass at La Source if it wasn't for him cutting the chicane.

Well said. This was the point I was trying to make.

By the way I will wait til AFTER the next race to update the points (or at least see if a decision on McLaren's appeal will be soon). If not then it's as is:

1. Felipe Massa - Ferrari
2. Nick Heidfeld - BMW
3. Lewis Hamilton - Mercedes

Jeff Shyu wrote:

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:Yeah, but the pass comes at the end of the front straight, far away from the chicane. I think he could have made the pass even if he'd followed Kimi through the chicane because the McLaren was clearly faster than the Ferrari at that point in the race.

faster per lap, yes, but not fast-enough to pass Kimmi on just the front straight.

remember, Lewis had been dragging Kimmi for 17 seconds at WOT with some tow, and barely got alongside him for the bus stop. so while Lewis was gaining 10ths per lap, i think it's unrealistic to think he would have taken Kimmi by La Source if he cleanly took the bus stop.

Perhaps, but you said Kimi ran wide to push Lewis off, so if he hadn't then what?

But it's not as if those two things were the only reason Hamilton won.

Yet, later the same lap, Kimi used the runoff at Pouhon and passed Rosberg and Hamilton under yellow, although not intentionally. Then Kimi spun, giving back the lead he'd regained. After that, Kimi pushed it too far and put the car into the wall. Raikkonenn is a former ice racer, World Champion, 3-time winner at Spa, yet he's the one who binned his car.

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:By the way I will wait til AFTER the next race to update the points (or at least see if a decision on McLaren's appeal will be soon). If not then it's as is:

1. Felipe Massa - Ferrari
2. Nick Heidfeld - BMW
3. Lewis Hamilton - Mercedes

BTW, any bonus cookie for picking Vettel to score points?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ovii ... kimi_sport" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
great video clip here. some clip from Lewis, some from Kimi. you also see how fast Lewis was catching Kimi. no comparison.

Fabulous video! (too bad they couldn't get the aspect ratio right) ... incredible that everyone made it thru when that Williams (?) came back onto the track! What masterful driving from everyone on those last laps ... well ... except Kimi stuffing it.

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:By the way I will wait til AFTER the next race to update the points (or at least see if a decision on McLaren's appeal will be soon). If not then it's as is:

1. Felipe Massa - Ferrari
2. Nick Heidfeld - BMW
3. Lewis Hamilton - Mercedes

BTW, any bonus cookie for picking Vettel to score points?

Hmmmm.....being that I'm being told I'm arbitrary and capricious (not be you Bob) but, I actually would like Larry Andrew's opinion on this. bonus cookie for Vettel I'm 50/50. The Toro Rosso car is actually improving and with his skill it's looking more and more like a good pick. But I believe Larry always gave cookies to "podium-only" drivers. Larry?

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:By the way I will wait til AFTER the next race to update the points (or at least see if a decision on McLaren's appeal will be soon). If not then it's as is:

1. Felipe Massa - Ferrari
2. Nick Heidfeld - BMW
3. Lewis Hamilton - Mercedes

BTW, any bonus cookie for picking Vettel to score points?

Hmmmm.....being that I'm being told I'm arbitrary and capricious (not be you Bob) but, I actually would like Larry Andrew's opinion on this. bonus cookie for Vettel I'm 50/50. The Toro Rosso car is actually improving and with his skill it's looking more and more like a good pick. But I believe Larry always gave cookies to "podium-only" drivers. Larry?

I can see that. Picking someone in the Top 8 isn't as challenging as the Top 3. Vettel scored points last year when he sat-in for Kubica for one race. But will Bourdais go P1 in the the first round of qualifying?