Cal Club Autocross Forums

Keith Lyon wrote:When the SK class was first introduced, part of the intent was to return to "run what you brung", mainly for drivers that had no intention of going to Nationals, and there were a lot of choices for SK tires are very reasonable prices. Most drivers got a full season from a set of tires or maybe 2 seasons from 3 sets. Within a few years, new tires were introduced, and the choices became limited if you wanted to be competitive. Also, SK started as 1 class, but it became apparent that the larger, higher horsepower cars were more impacted by street tires than the smaller, lower horsepower cars (based on the SCCA Stock classes), so SK was broken into 2 groups.
As for driving a car with horsepower in SK, I drove an '88 Firebird Formula 350 in SK in the early '90s. The tire then was a Yoko, don't remember the model. I had a blast - it was not easy to control understeer going into a corner and oversteer out of a corner, but isn't learning how to control a car part of Solo2? I learned. It was not the cost of tires that ended my use of the car, but instead the price of normal maintenance.
When I competed in SK, the tires stayed on my car full-time and I drove the car to work. When I competed in the sticky-tire classes, I got real tired of loading tires and a jack, unloading, changing, changing back, loading and unloading for each event - a lot of work for 3-6 runs. Plus, a place to store the extra wheels/tires in my garage.
Remember, Solo2 is a hobby and fun.
Keith Lyon - participated from 1984-2005

Thanks for the perspective, Keith.

So the question was 'why no national SK class' and there are dozens of posts about tires and not a single word about 'why there is no national SK class'.

SK classes are indexed. The SCCA will never touch an indexed class when the index is 'brought in' from the outside. The methodology used for the PAX's is flawed (of course there is no 'perfect' methodology)


There will NEVER be a National SK class. And my prediction is that the SCCA will drop the SK classes from both our local National events when the participation numbers go up.

Allowing the SK classes at the Tour and the ProSolo is a method the SCCA is using to boost local interest. Once they don't need the interest, the classes are gone from our local National events.


nalbar

Warren Leach wrote:Allowing the SK classes at the Tour and the ProSolo is a method the SCCA is using to boost local interest. Once they don't need the interest, the classes are gone from our local National events.

If they're using it to build interest, and it's working, why would they stop? Is there a level at which there is too much interest? I would think more interest is always good.

I don't care personally either way about having a national SK class because I'm not interested in competing on a national level, but that logic doesn't make any sense to me.

the interest is just to bring more participation of local members into National Events. Of course i still see SK as getting your feet wet into stock class. Once participation increases, there is no need for SK and hopefully those who had National Tour experience in SK will move on up to the competition of Stock Class.

Jonathan Lugod wrote:the interest is just to bring more participation of local members into National Events. Of course i still see SK as getting your feet wet into stock class. Once participation increases, there is no need for SK and hopefully those who had National Tour experience in SK will move on up to the competition of Stock Class.

"Here have this it's cool get u started, it's cheap and easy."

"Oh what you want to run SK class, we took that away,now that we have our numbers up again, you can run Stock, on r's."

Driver shakes his head -"WTH I would have done that in the first place if i wanted too/afford too."


"Hey we are offering Sk classes b/c participation has dropped again."


SK2 was won by an Out of state driver, at the NT 2009 . SK2 had quite a few non-local drivers.

Jeff Stuart wrote:the interest is just to bring more participation of local members into National Events. Of course i still see SK as getting your feet wet into stock class. Once participation increases, there is no need for SK and hopefully those who had National Tour experience in SK will move on up to the competition of Stock Class.

It's my understanding that the ST class is just a gateway drug designed by the SCCA to help bring people used to cheap low powered front wheel drive cars into autocross. The hope is that someday they will step up and drive in a competitive class with respectable sports cars.

Adrian Covert wrote:

Jeff Stuart wrote:the interest is just to bring more participation of local members into National Events. Of course i still see SK as getting your feet wet into stock class. Once participation increases, there is no need for SK and hopefully those who had National Tour experience in SK will move on up to the competition of Stock Class.

It's my understanding that the ST class is just a gateway drug designed by the SCCA to help bring people used to cheap low powered front wheel drive cars into autocross. The hope is that someday they will step up and drive in a competitive class with respectable sports cars.

I'm yo pushahhhhhhhh

Jeff Stuart wrote:

Warren Leach wrote:Allowing the SK classes at the Tour and the ProSolo is a method the SCCA is using to boost local interest. Once they don't need the interest, the classes are gone from our local National events.

If they're using it to build interest, and it's working, why would they stop? Is there a level at which there is too much interest? I would think more interest is always good.

I don't care personally either way about having a national SK class because I'm not interested in competing on a national level, but that logic doesn't make any sense to me.

I imagine, much like Spec Miata racing, the level of prestige they want to maintain isn't something that a SK driver is going to bring. It does generate plenty of talent but not income, and when you run a business you follow the money (corporate antics prove that time and time again).

Doesn't mean I want any less to get in on a class like that though. Bet it would be an amazing challenge.

Adrian Covert wrote:

Jeff Stuart wrote:the interest is just to bring more participation of local members into National Events. Of course i still see SK as getting your feet wet into stock class. Once participation increases, there is no need for SK and hopefully those who had National Tour experience in SK will move on up to the competition of Stock Class.

It's my understanding that the ST class is just a gateway drug designed by the SCCA to help bring people used to cheap low powered front wheel drive cars into autocross. The hope is that someday they will step up and drive in a competitive class with respectable sports cars.

true, but you still have the issue of properly categorizing the cars without using an Index (SK).

This topic is getting worked and I am sure nobody needs any more points of perspective on the subject. But.....

1) Sk is great for getting started. Seat time and learning the game is important and SK lets many people get into the sport without much investment.

2) SCCA Solo is supposed to be a SPORT not an activity. PAX is very difficult to use as a stable handicap for real racing. Handicap racing gets very political when the stakes increase. The best street tires are nearly as expensive as R compounds so we are not talking about discount racing as the stake increase. If you want to play the sport you need the toy (a race car). As it stands now SCCA allows too many cars into stock classes and that is a source of contention when it comes to classing. One design racing is the best racing. I say SK is fun and could be a separate activity but it has no place at tour unless all entries drop to the point that tour gets canceled.

Racing got expensive with the desire to go faster in newer cars.
Newer cars have larger dia wheels and larger dia wheels and tires are more expensive than smaller dia wheels.
To be competitive in most classes you need a prepped (at least good shocks) car and three sets of new tires (don’t forget rain).
You need to transport all your stuff and store all your stuff (rent space $).
Most competitive cars are not good street cars or dally drivers (an additional $$$$ car is needed for many).
Tires are expensive but overall expenses have gotten greater as folks push the requirements up.

STS (now ST) started as a popular bolt on modification and low cost tire class. Now the ST tires are as good as and as expensive as R compounds were 10 years a go. Many of the ST cars arrive on trailers with tow vehicles. Many ST cars have rebuilt motors and race seats.

Stock class is not inexpensive if you do the math. As SCCA shifts classes top competitors purchase new cars every few years. New cars have not devalued like older used cars. With a new car and the stock restrictions many drivers have to replace all the wheels and other parts that they were using on the previous car. If SCCA had a ONE DESIGN class (like F125) the cost could be controlled some what.

Face it, as soon as it is called racing it gets expensive if you want to win at the national level. If you are having fun at the local level and you are not broke you are doing well. Pax is political and would be a real problem as a National class. I know the Pro uses it. Chasing Pax (SK) can get very expensive when you have to get a new car all the time. I have seen many people pull out of SCCA because they did not like classing changes and they did not want to purchase a new class killer car every few years. Pax (SK) will force many people to purchase a new car every year.

Eliminate R-compounds from the stock rules allowance and PAX is a non issue! That's what I would like to see happen and it seems fundamentally more in line with what I think of as a "Stock" car regarding a level of preparation. IMHO

Long before I ever even heard of autocross I dreamed of having a huge playground for my car. A place where I could safely enjoy the edge of the performance envelope and do the things that I could never try on the street (legally or safely!)

When I discovered autocross it was like a dream come true, and the fact that a whole organization of people were out there working towards making it happen seemed like my idea of heaven. Then I found out that people take nearly completely stock cars and slap on weird slick tires that you should never use on the street just to run 3 laps.... WTF It's cool if it's an Indy car or a real "race car" but what's the point on a stock car that was designed to use street tires? It's kind of like saying that I can do 0 to 60 in 0.5 seconds on my Bicycle if I strap a JATO rocket to my ass (Kind of cool but total irrelevant, mostly pointless.) I did try out the R-compounds once and it felt awesome to have so much more grip than what I normally have, but then I had to put my cheap all-seasons on and drive home. An artificial and temporary enhancement that misrepresents the real capabilities of both me and my car.
I want to have fun while competing at the highest level that my skill, time, and budget will allow. If that were to be the national level I couldn't be more pleased, but I will take what is available. If the SK class were to go away I would go back to doing what I did for years before I joined this region and compete in Stock class on street tires against people on R-compounds (except for when I briefly tried out a set of used Kumo Vicoracers myself.) I didn't win very often on street tires but my goal was to "have fun while competing at the highest level that my skill, time, and budget will allow", and when I did win it made it feel just that much better.

Someday I would love to try out some different classes like Karts, ST, Mod, etc. but for now stock it will be.

Adrian Covert wrote:Eliminate R-compounds from the stock rules allowance and PAX is a non issue! That's what I would like to see happen and it seems fundamentally more in line with what I think of as a "Stock" car regarding a level of preparation. IMHO

Long before I ever even heard of autocross I dreamed of having a huge playground for my car. A place where I could safely enjoy the edge of the performance envelope and do the things that I could never try on the street (legally or safely!)

When I discovered autocross it was like a dream come true, and the fact that a whole organization of people were out there working towards making it happen seemed like my idea of heaven. Then I found out that people take nearly completely stock cars and slap on weird slick tires that you should never use on the street just to run 3 laps.... WTF It's cool if it's an Indy car or a real "race car" but what's the point on a stock car that was designed to use street tires? It's kind of like saying that I can do 0 to 60 in 0.5 seconds on my Bicycle if I strap a JATO rocket to my ass (Kind of cool but total irrelevant, mostly pointless.) I did try out the R-compounds once and it felt awesome to have so much more grip than what I normally have, but then I had to put my cheap all-seasons on and drive home. An artificial and temporary enhancement that misrepresents the real capabilities of both me and my car.
I want to have fun while competing at the highest level that my skill, time, and budget will allow. If that were to be the national level I couldn't be more pleased, but I will take what is available. If the SK class were to go away I would go back to doing what I did for years before I joined this region and compete in Stock class on street tires against people on R-compounds (except for when I briefly tried out a set of used Kumo Vicoracers myself.) I didn't win very often on street tires but my goal was to "have fun while competing at the highest level that my skill, time, and budget will allow", and when I did win it made it feel just that much better.

Someday I would love to try out some different classes like Karts, ST, Mod, etc. but for now stock it will be.

Uh oh...hope you're wearing your s**tstorm gear.

Uh oh...hope you're wearing your s**tstorm gear.

Jonathan Lugod wrote:

Uh oh...hope you're wearing your s**tstorm gear.

Come on, College boy you can do better than that.

Chad Stubblefield wrote:

is that yours .

ha
I wish

one of the greatest bands of your time.

Chad Stubblefield wrote:ha
I wish

one of the greatest bands of your time.

WTF are you smoking.

Tom Denham wrote:

Chad Stubblefield wrote:ha
I wish

one of the greatest bands of your time.

WTF are you smoking.

BEER :barf:

Doug Teulie wrote:If SCCA had a ONE DESIGN class (like F125) the cost could be controlled some what.

Bingo Doug....BINGO!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIyQvDbRbeU

The Street tire VS R's war has begun.

Tom Denham wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIyQvDbRbeU

The Street tire VS R's war has begun.

Somebody needs to learn how to do subtitles... lol

Well so much for the national SK class movement

SK1/SK2 San Diego tour - 7 signed up so far.

STR - first 3 tour events 14, 9, 17 so far.

Mark Duerst wrote:Well so much for the national SK class movement

SK1/SK2 San Diego tour - 7 signed up so far.

STR - first 3 tour events 14, 9, 17 so far.

Only 5 at the pro, barely makes a single pro class if you put SK1 and 2 together.

Mark Duerst wrote:Well so much for the national SK class movement

SK1/SK2 San Diego tour - 7 signed up so far.

STR - first 3 tour events 14, 9, 17 so far.

When you're treated like an afterthought at national events, it's not a huge surprise. The fact that SK1 and SK2 are consistently some of the best subscribed classes at local events says it all. I appreciate your efforts to include us, but a lot of people stop registering as soon as they fail to see their class in the signup list. I hope more people sign up.