Not Just SUV's ... Fiat 500 Also

[Jayson Woodruff]

It would have won SK1 at this event but lets be honest, Brian, Ken or Ryan could win SK1 with pretty much anything.

Are you serious here? Based on which index? The tires it was on will almost entirely negate any alien's advantage over our somewhat formidable SK group.

It looked REALLY flat, but given sticky tires might show some more normal body roll. It also look very controlable. I expected a lot more drama at the finish line, but all the driver's seemed to catch it easily.

Jay W

[Rick Brown]

It would have won SK1 at this event but lets be honest, Brian, Ken or Ryan could win SK1 with pretty much anything.

Are you serious here? Based on which index? The tires it was on will almost entirely negate any alien's advantage over our somewhat formidable SK group.

It looked REALLY flat, but given sticky tires might show some more normal body roll. It also look very controlable. I expected a lot more drama at the finish line, but all the driver's seemed to catch it easily.

Jay W

Well they were considerably faster than SK1 raw times and around the top of SK2 raw times.

[Jeff Stuart]

Well they were considerably faster than SK1 raw times and around the top of SK2 raw times.

FWIW, the river was significantly larger when SK* was running compared to the Scion.

[Doug Kott]

It would have won SK1 at this event but lets be honest, Brian, Ken or Ryan could win SK1 with pretty much anything.

Are you serious here? Based on which index? The tires it was on will almost entirely negate any alien's advantage over our somewhat formidable SK group.

Really? It's 2012 and you're still calling them aliens? I prefer "undocumented autocross immigrants."

I liked what I saw, and what K-Mo said about the FR-S. The Corvette's almost sold, and the vacuum created by its absence might just suck a Scion into my garage!

[Steve Lepper]

This has been a very interesting conversation to follow. But really, who cares? :heyes:

Speaking of the FRS, how did it do when our drivers took it around the course yesterday? We didn't get to stay long enough to watch.

It ran... some times.... that were... relatively faster or slower than.... some other times it ran.... (they didn't announce the times)

It sure looked good doing it though.

But considering there were at least a half-dozen stopwatches and iphone timers standing right outside the motorhome, we have a pretty good general idea of what those times are. }:)

If you're doubting Alien status, realize that Brian P had about a dozen laps in the morning sessions to learn the course. Ryan had one lap... as a passenger.

[Michael Wood]

I think what you're saying is right, about the need to manage the message to the public. Unfortunately, we can't see the data we need any longer, as a result. You think relying entirely on the assimilated roll over risk % works? You might be surprised at some of the cars that pass/fail the proposed 14% threshold...

http://www.nhtsa.gov/DOT/NHTSA/Vehicle% ... 5-0114.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
go to page 18 of 36 and you have the EXACT equations used to calculate the rollover risk percentages as a function of SSF and including the dynamic test results...or not.


...WINNING!

and running the numbers for a SSF=1.3 you get a roll over risk rating of 13.9635%. so uh I guess the fiat 500 does not meet the rules for stock class afterall. haha

So, you used the "not tipping over" formula, I take it?

When would one know when to use the "tipping over" formula?

I guess it would be if the total "star rating" was, like, one star?

[Marshall Grice]

So, you used the "not tipping over" formula, I take it?

When would one know when to use the "tipping over" formula?

I guess it would be if the total "star rating" was, like, one star?

the safercar.gov website lists two things in their rollover report. The rollover risk percentage and whether it lifted wheels in the dynamic test or not. the dynamic test results tell you which formula to use.

so I used the 'no tip' formula for the fiat 500 based on it's dynamic test results to back calc it's SSF.

[Mako Koiwai]

So how does the Honda FIT and Yarius fit in with AX'ing ... we've had both of them run with us.

[John Stimson]

Mako, you can look up the SSF ratings (or the rollover percentage, for newer cars) at http://www.safercar.gov" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; by clicking the link to 5-star vehicle safety ratings.

The Fit and Yaris just barely qualify to run, if I recall correctly.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

The Yaris barely qualifies as a car.

[Mako Koiwai]

You mean Jason's I's racing cars? ;)

[Ed Holley]

The "experiment" is testing the hypothesis that ES can have increased numbers of entrants and simultaneously create a sense of fun, close competition and reduced costs if the main ingredient is street tires only. So far, so good.

How's that working for you with the San Diego region, the National Tour, and the ProSolo? Unless you convince those already running R-compounds to switch to street tires while remaining in open E-Stock, your experiment holds zero weight.

3rd place in the ES standings in San Diego...on street tires. 1st and 2nd are on R-Comps. It won't last, but that's okay. Street tires in stock is the future.

[Marshall Grice]

Street tires in stock is the future.

uh...it's the present also. nothing preventing you from running street tires in stock, as you already know.

[Ed Holley]

Street tires in stock is the future.

uh...it's the present also. nothing preventing you from running street tires in stock, as you already know.

10-4! Left out the word "only". ;)

[Jayson Woodruff]

3rd place in the ES standings in San Diego...on street tires. 1st and 2nd are on R-Comps. It won't last, but that's okay. Street tires in stock is the future.

I'm not exactly sure what your intended point here was, but I'm pretty sure you missed it.

You're in 4th, and a tick ahead of the basement of people who are actually showing up. I know three of the other four drivers are on R-comps and Daryled might be.

I'm going to start looking up everything you claim.

Jay W

[John Stimson]

Ed, if you really want stock on only street tires to happen, you should run in RTR, not E Stock, at the San Diego Tour. The SEB and national staff are using the RT attendance as an indicator for whether stock-on-street-tires is a viable idea. If you run ES, that puts more weight behind the status quo.

[Kurt Rahn]

Ed, if you really want stock on only street tires to happen, you should run in RTR, not E Stock, at the San Diego Tour. The SEB and national staff are using the RT attendance as an indicator for whether stock-on-street-tires is a viable idea. If you run ES, that puts more weight behind the status quo.

Thank you, John! First of all, Ed, if you try to run street tires at a national event when everyone else is running R-comps, you'll get dismantled, even if your skills develop to the point of alien-ness. More important, if you want to run street tires in a stock class *competitively* at national events, you need to support the RT* classes this year...or they may not exist next year. This year is put up or shut up. Street tires in stock classes are only "the future" if we make it so. If RT* has a crappy showing after all this whining we've been doing, it' goes right into the $hitcan next year.

[Max Hayter]

What Kurt and John said - if you want street tires in stock, run RTR. Any other choice will be telling the SCCA that you do NOT want street tires in stock.

[Jayson Woodruff]

We went over this with Ed on the San Diego board about three weeks ago. No avail.

Jay W

Ed, if you really want stock on only street tires to happen, you should run in RTR, not E Stock, at the San Diego Tour...

[Mike Simanyi]

Being on the SEB, I can confirm what they're all telling you Ed. Run RTR if you are in favor of street tires in Stock.

Mike

[Kurt Rahn]

Put it this way: it's important enough that I'm driving to freakin' Lincoln twice this year (for the Pro/Tour and Nationals) to support the RT* classes.

Any BTW, I will join Jason I. and the other "no street tires in stock" folks if after this year RT* classes get eliminated and people start whining again about street tires in stock. This is our chance. We can't screw it up. :mrt: :mrt: :mrt:

[Jonathan Lugod]

I'm starting to think he'd rather be 5th out of 5 rather than 15th out of 15 or whatever he ends up at the end of the day.

*sarcasm*Like people keep telling me, it's better to be third in a three car class, than ninth in an eleven car class. Easier on the neck because you don't have to scroll down as far when reading the results.*sarcasm*

nalbar a.k.a Warren Leech

[Ed Holley]

3rd place in the ES standings in San Diego...on street tires. 1st and 2nd are on R-Comps. It won't last, but that's okay. Street tires in stock is the future.

I'm not exactly sure what your intended point here was, but I'm pretty sure you missed it.

You're in 4th, and a tick ahead of the basement of people who are actually showing up. I know three of the other four drivers are on R-comps and Daryled might be.

I'm going to start looking up everything you claim.

Jay W

Eventually, you will come to the conclusion that I don't lie, as you are implying. I'm in 3rd. The name ahead of me was miss-classed because he was not in ES at the most recent event in SD. He ran in FS. Warren has been communicationg behind the scenes to get it corrected. It was Warren who informed me that the competitor shown in 3rd in ES standings had actually run in FS at the last event. But, then, we all know what a liar Warren is.

[Ed Holley]

Being on the SEB, I can confirm what they're all telling you Ed. Run RTR if you are in favor of street tires in Stock.

Mike

I totally respect yours and others opinions. As you well know, street tires is ALREADY allowed in stock. Since the very beginning of the RT discussion, I have been trying to understand why we are being lumped into an SK1/SK2 INDEXED type of class to prove interest in "street tire in stock". From my little pee-brain point-of-view, it appears that we're headed toward a permanent SK type of street tire indexed class, as opposed to a street tires only in stock set of classes. No one has explained to me that that is NOT the case. Even though I have asked, even at SCCA.

Just today, in a email reply to KJ, I said that I don't have a major problem with running in RT RWD. I'm just looking for a little more detailed explaination than because "you should".

Frankly, I don't understand why everyone is pushing so hard. If you look at the entrants in RT so far, it's a mile long. My adding to the list will not seal the deal. I have been on record here and SD and Miata.net stating that my personal objective in ANY autocross event is to see how close I can come to competitiors who are on R-Comps, while I am running street tires. Why is that such a problem?

In the end, on subjects such as this, when it is a SEB/SCCA "test", I want to be a team player. But, for reference, although a bit redundant, here is a portion of my email to KJ this afternoon...

If the intent of the SEB is to determine the level of street tire interest in the stock classes, why is the test this year based on index? Stock classes can compete NOW on street tires without an index. It's allowance of those pesky R-Comps that get in the way.
My problem is that I think we're going to wind up with a National level permanent SK1 and SK2 in order to come up with a street tire only formula for stock classes, as opposed to ES, et al, where only street tires are allowed.

Ed

[Mako Koiwai]

Through out the history of AX, the general rule of thumb is that R tires are 2 seconds faster then Street Tires on a 60 second course. This is "officially" retested every once in a while when a car magazine like Grassroots Motor Sports does a test of new ST tires and includes an R tire in the test. We can see this ourselves month after month.

What you might perceive sometimes as having your ideas not taken seriously comes from the experienced folks being some what exasperated since they've gone through these things over and over again.

... Mako, who also believes that the time has come for Stock Cars to run on ST tires only, and almost wishes he had a RTR ride at the SD Tour.