2008 F1 Podium Picker Challenge: Belgian Grand Prix: Rd 13

[Mako Koiwai]

I think one should only get half points for Ferrari positions. ;) The Belgium ones certainly weren't "hard fought."

[Giovanni Jaramillo]

I think one should only get half points for Ferrari positions. ;)

That would upset a certain CSP-driver. ;)

[Aaron Goldsmith]

Yeah, but the pass comes at the end of the front straight, far away from the chicane. I think he could have made the pass even if he'd followed Kimi through the chicane because the McLaren was clearly faster than the Ferrari at that point in the race.

faster per lap, yes, but not fast-enough to pass Kimmi on just the front straight.

remember, Lewis had been dragging Kimmi for 17 seconds at WOT with some tow, and barely got alongside him for the bus stop. so while Lewis was gaining 10ths per lap, i think it's unrealistic to think he would have taken Kimmi by La Source if he cleanly took the bus stop.

Just so you guys know, Jeff is most likely arguing this just to argue.. it's one of his favorite things.

[Jeff Shyu]

Yeah, but the pass comes at the end of the front straight, far away from the chicane. I think he could have made the pass even if he'd followed Kimi through the chicane because the McLaren was clearly faster than the Ferrari at that point in the race.

faster per lap, yes, but not fast-enough to pass Kimmi on just the front straight.

remember, Lewis had been dragging Kimmi for 17 seconds at WOT with some tow, and barely got alongside him for the bus stop. so while Lewis was gaining 10ths per lap, i think it's unrealistic to think he would have taken Kimmi by La Source if he cleanly took the bus stop.

Just so you guys know, Jeff is most likely arguing this just to argue.. it's one of his favorite things.

aaron's just saying that to ruin my fun, because.. it's one of HIS favorite things..

[Aaron Goldsmith]

aaron's just saying that to ruin my fun, because.. it's one of HIS favorite things..

Not sayin you have to stop, here I'll even throw you a talking point to argue against.

Jeff, *I* as well and you know the basis for your argument can be made slightly invalid if we just go to the rules.. to the letter of the rules Lewis gave up the position he gained so he shouldn't be penalized. This interpretation of the rules is supported by president many times over.

[Jeff Shyu]

Jeff, *I* as well and you know the basis for your argument can be made slightly invalid if we just go to the rules.. to the letter of the rules Lewis gave up the position he gained so he shouldn't be penalized. This interpretation of the rules is supported by president many times over.

i see your point, and pose you a counter point:

if Kimmi realized that he would be giving up a huge advantage by letting Lewis draft him the entire way up to La Source (vs. say, the last 10% of the straight as one may reasonably guestimate for 2 people coming out of a corner accordioned together), would it have been "legal" for him to continue to slow down to make sure he stayed behind Lewis until they reached La Source, thus allowing him to "rubber band" around the turn?

if he continued to slow, Massa would have easily made up the 6 second gap by the end of the straight, would THAT be considered legal?

just using that to point out that not all rules are black and white, and lewis tucking in right behind kimmi at the first 15% of the front straight is not something that can be reasonably achieved by clean racing. and if something can't be reasonably achieved, then by default, it was advantageous if you DID achieve it.

[Jeff Shyu]

anyone got a link to the actual sporting regulation dealing with cutting a chicane? i'm reading the pdf index, and can't readily identify it.

it'd be interesting to see if the rules say "position" or "advantage"..

i'd agree that Lewis gave up the POSITION, but never gave up the ADVANTAGE by cutting the chicane.

edit: i browsed through the 2008 sporting regulation, and couldn't find the actual wording of cutting the chicane.

[William Chen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mE_K3AewNE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Massa and Kubica last year at Fuji for a precedent (last lap fighting for 6th place). both cut chicane many many times. They should both be penalized for an hour. yet no penalty for either.

[Jeff Shyu]

i don't think anyone will argue against the inconsistency of FIA ruling.

[Randy Chase]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzKMyFCaZy0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Larry Andrews]

It's up to Gio...he's the man this year.

I'm sorta like a grandparent now - really proud to see everyone having fun but also able to stay clean when the fit hits the shan.

Maybe I should watch the race tonight. Sounds like it was a good one.

[Giovanni Jaramillo]

It's up to Gio...he's the man this year.

I'm sorta like a grandparent now - really proud to see everyone having fun but also able to stay clean when the fit hits the shan.

Maybe I should watch the race tonight. Sounds like it was a good one.

Oh Larry.......you gotta watch it. Everything's going according to the "Ferrari" plan until Mother Nature intervenes and all HELL }:) breaks loose.

But........as you know....GOD ALMIGHT (aka the FIA) steps in and saves Ferrari's ass!

[Giovanni Jaramillo]

Results have been posted (I'm not waiting for appeals and decisions - f****** FIA).

And because of the FIA, the results of THIS game are "skewed" IMO. So now we have a 3-way tie!!!

Read it and weep. Please double check your picks, your points and race-results.

http://www.solo2.com/F1Game.asp

To one of the 1st place people....enjoy your "sham" of a win. You know who you are! ;)

[Larry Andrews]

What I want to know is why NOBODY seemed to notice Taka in the Mother's Wax commercial! Dude's a rockstar now yet he went to school in Nebraska where I grew up. How freakin' cool is that!

Wish I didn't have to get up for work tomorrow. :barf: Guess I'll have to watch the second half tomorrow.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

McLaren has issued some more statements about the decision of the FIA Stewards in Belgium.

"Following our decision to register our intention to appeal the penalty handed out to Lewis Hamilton by the FIA Stewards at the 2008 Belgian Grand Prix, we hereby confirm that we have now lodged notice of appeal," said team boss Martin Whitmarsh. "From the pit wall, we then asked Race Control to confirm that they were comfortable that Lewis had allowed Kimi to repass, and they confirmed twice that they believed that the position had been given back in a manner that was 'OK'. If Race Control had instead expressed any concern regarding Lewis’s actions at that time, we would have instructed Lewis to allow Kimi to repass for a second time."

[William Chen]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... rosa&vt=lf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

another McLaren vs. Ferrari.
cutting chicane - check
penalty - umm, no

[Jeff Shyu]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... rosa&vt=lf

another McLaren vs. Ferrari.
cutting chicane - check
penalty - umm, no

except, at no point, was the McLaren ahead of the Ferrari, therefor, no pass was made, and the Ferrari used the runoff to avoid collision, and retained the lead which he never lost.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... rosa&vt=lf

another McLaren vs. Ferrari.
cutting chicane - check
penalty - umm, no

except, at no point, was the McLaren ahead of the Ferrari, therefor, no pass was made, and the Ferrari used the runoff to avoid collision, and retained the lead which he never lost.

What part of "you can't cut the corners to gain a competitive advantage" didn't make sense to you in this clip? Doesn't matter if De la Rosa's in front or not.

Also, the fact that Race Control was asked twice whether Hamilton's allowing Kimi back in front was enough, and being told twice that it was doesn't make you wonder what the hell was going on? Race Control is Charlie Whiting and his word is supposed to be gospel.

[Jeff Shyu]

you "gain a competitive advantage" if you were behind, and got ahead. you can't get more ahead when you're already ahead.

the difference between this one, and the one from spa, is that there was no position change

[Larry Andrews]

Having finally seen the rest of the race...

I think Bob Varsha said it best with: 'You can't do that' right when the lovefest happened. Three guys got dinged for that stuff, two after the race was over. C'est la vie.

That was a hell of an exciting lap. Makes me want to fire up the Husky and do some terrifyin.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

you "gain a competitive advantage" if you were behind, and got ahead. you can't get more ahead when you're already ahead.

the difference between this one, and the one from spa, is that there was no position change

Schumacher would have lost his position. The rule applies in either situation.

What McLaren asking Race Control twice about the incident? Charlie Whiting says it's OK and then the stewards change that? That's BS.

[Jeff Shyu]

you "gain a competitive advantage" if you were behind, and got ahead. you can't get more ahead when you're already ahead.

the difference between this one, and the one from spa, is that there was no position change

Schumacher would have lost his position. The rule applies in either situation.

What McLaren asking Race Control twice about the incident? Charlie Whiting says it's OK and then the stewards change that? That's BS.

i agree the penalty was BS, and i agree that FIA is very inconsistent in how they choose to enforce rules, especially favoring Ferrari.

however, i still think, if they wanted to favor ferrari, and choose SPA as a moment to be a stickler for the rules, the ruling is consistent with the FIA (at least my understanding of it. I tried looking for the actual wording, but couldn't. anyone else find it?)

in the schumacher case, i think it was also consistant with FIA rules, because he was ahead the entire time, he was on the inside line, and was not given room to make his corner cleanly, so he cut the chicane to avoid an accident. To me, the major point, and the reason why the 2 are different, is that it's up to the passing party to make a clean pass, the person leading can make it as hard as they want (usually by taking away the racing line). The person in the lead should be allowed to run people wide if they're trying to retain their line. the person passing, shouldn't, because that'd mean they couldn't make the pass without being safe.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

De la Rosa had the corner when Schumacher cut the chicane.

[Jeff Shyu]

he was never ahead, therefore, never "had the corner".

you can argue that he had the "advantageous line".. but that doesn't mean ahead.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

he was never ahead, therefore, never "had the corner".

you can argue that he had the "advantageous line".. but that doesn't mean ahead.

Better look again, the Mclaren was ahead.

As for Spa, even the broadcast/analysis team from Italy's Rai 1 TV ALL thought Hamilton's give back and subsequent pass were legit. That group includes a former Ferrari driver, an engineer and a team manager.