Cal Club Autocross Forums

Yesterday during the first run group a driver decided to come out on the course and have an argument with a worker in the section 1 over a DNF call, distracting the worker from his primary job. I have to believe there is a better time and way to dispute a call. What is the official policy / rule? How can this be prevented in the future?

Per the '08 SCCA rule book

8. PROTESTS
While the right to protest in proper cases is undoubted, it should be
remembered that Solo events are sporting events, to be conducted in
a sporting spirit; that all events are organized and managed by
amateurs who cheerfully give their time and do their best, that the
competitor may expect some imperfections of the organizers and of
his fellow competitors; and that, to a reasonable extent, these things
are part of the chances he takes in entering the competition.

8.1 WHO MAY PROTEST
The right to protest shall rest with any entrant, driver or official
taking part in the competition in question. Each may protest any
decision, act, or omission of the organizers, an official, entrant,
driver or other person connected with the competition, which the
protestor believes is in violation of the Solo Rules, the
Supplementary Regulations, or any conditions attached to the
sanctioning of the event by SCCA (hereafter in this section
collectively referred to as “the rules”). A protest against a car is
also a protest against its driver and entrant.

8.2 LODGING A PROTEST
A protest shall be made in writing, specifying which sections of the
Solo Rules or other applicable rules are alleged to have been
violated, and signed by one protesting entrant or driver or official.
It shall be delivered to the Chief Steward or to his designated
representative, or to the chairman of the Protest Committee (PC). If
delivered to the Chief Steward, it shall be promptly forwarded to the
chairman of the PC.

8.2.1 Protest Fee
The protest shall be accompanied by a protest fee of $25 at
Divisional or National Tour events and $50 at National
Championship events. The fee will be doubled for protests against
cars (see 8.3) that are filed after the car is released from impound
on its first day of competition. The protest fee is waived for protests
filed in an official capacity by the Chief Steward.

8.2.2 Time Limits
A. A protest against a competition vehicle shall be lodged before it
is released from Impound on its final day of competition.
B. A protest against the actions of a driver, entrant, or official during
class competition, including a protest against Timing and Scoring,
shall be lodged not later than 30 minutes after the class is released
from Impound on the day of the suspected violation of
the rules.
C. A protest against the actions of a driver, entrant, or official outside
of class competition shall be lodged not later than 30 minutes
after the last class is released from Impound on the final
day of competition.
D. A protest filed in an official capacity by the Chief Steward shall
be lodged not later than 30 minutes after the last class is released
from Impound on the final day of competition, except for a
protest resulting from an Impound or Protest Committee inspection.
Such protests shall be lodged within a reasonable time after
discovery of the suspected violation of the rules.

If the Chief of Workers, SSS or Event Chair did not see the "discussion", the radio operator for that corner should have called in to the master radio of the problem on course, the "course officials" notified and, I would hope, the competition stopped until the course was cleared.

I understand the competitors ire, albeit confusion, on yesterdays course, but there were other ways to handle it without the potential dangerous situation caused.

But truthfully there really isn't a way to dispute cone calls.

If you do this long enough you'll be burned.

The only hope is guidance to the workers so they are clear on the rules and the job. But they are human and usually short handed and when things get chaotic, mistakes are inevitable.

Its a limitation to our sport I don't think you can fix.

To be fair to Eric, he did call into the Master Radio, which was me.

I told Eric to kick the competitor in the nuts and tell him to bugger off. Perhaps not quite right, but I think the competitor at least left and resumed his argument after the group was over.

Max Hayter wrote:To be fair to Eric, he did call into the Master Radio, which was me.

I told Eric to kick the competitor in the nuts and tell him to bugger off. Perhaps not quite right, but I think the competitor at least left and resumed his argument after the group was over.

And to be fair to the radio guy in section 1... I wasn't the radio guy.

And to be fair to the driver, I asked our visitor to wait until later to have this discussion and he left without a fight.

I just want to know how to prevent this in the future and if it does happen do we hold the start until our unexpected guest has left the course?

Yes, in the future you should hold the start. No competitor should *ever* be on course for any discussion with workers.

Mike

I was the radio operator at Station 1. After ignoring the individual for a while then realizing he wasn't going away, I told him that I didn't see it, it happened in the first section and that there were proper ways to deal with a dispute. When I saw that he wasn't going to heed that advice, I called it in. It's a safety issue, and perhaps while the workers were distracted by his actions, they missed a DNF or cone by one of his competitors...

Richard James wrote:I was the radio operator at Station 1. After ignoring the individual for a while then realizing he wasn't going away, I told him that I didn't see it, it happened in the first section and that there were proper ways to deal with a dispute. When I saw that he wasn't going to heed that advice, I called it in. It's a safety issue, and perhaps while the workers were distracted by his actions, they missed a DNF or cone by one of his competitors...

Who was this competitor? (name, class, number)?

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:

Richard James wrote:I was the radio operator at Station 1. After ignoring the individual for a while then realizing he wasn't going away, I told him that I didn't see it, it happened in the first section and that there were proper ways to deal with a dispute. When I saw that he wasn't going to heed that advice, I called it in. It's a safety issue, and perhaps while the workers were distracted by his actions, they missed a DNF or cone by one of his competitors...

Who was this competitor? (name, class, number)?

I know the competitor, but to prevent finger-pointing I'll keep that to myself. The point of this thread wasn't to start something like that.

The point of the thread was to determine the proper course of action should it occur again - and to bring attention to the fact that I think some competitors have become a little too familiar and feel it's okay for them to just walk out on course whenever they want (not that this specific driver feels this way, but that some may very well feel this way).

Eric

I was shocked to hear this was not a newbie.

I find it interesting the DNF doesn't show on the preliminary results. Is it too late to run onto the course and protest one of the (many) cones that were called on me?

Philip Royle wrote:I find it interesting the DNF doesn't show on the preliminary results.

That's true. I'm not in the same class so it doesn't affect me but I am curious to see if this gets fixed. The competitor currently shows as getting a trophy. If the DNF were recorded correctly he'd lose the trophy and drop several places in the finishing order.

I'm not here to police this, but if I were in the same class I'd be pretty upset about this.

Eric Stanley wrote:The competitor currently shows as getting a trophy.

The trophies are not accurate according to our supp regs, and those are preliminary and that's just because the AXWare software displays it like that. So don't read too much into it.

Yesterday during the first run group a driver decided to come out on the course and have an argument with a worker in the section 1 over a DNF call, distracting the worker from his primary job.

Yeah, arguing a call works...

The event should have been stopped until the competitor was off the course. In my opinion, only the Event Chairman and the SSS have the privilege of walking out on course. On occasion, however, the Chief of Workers, has gone out to individual workers for numerous reasons. NEVER, EVER should a competitor, no matter who, wander out on course & talk to workers.

I wish I had known about this - the competitor would have been dealt with severely.

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:

Eric Stanley wrote:The competitor currently shows as getting a trophy.

The trophies are not accurate according to our supp regs, and those are preliminary and that's just because the AXWare software displays it like that. So don't read too much into it.

Actually they are accurate. 1 for 3, 2 for 5, 1 for each additional 5. Programmed into AXWare and all the ones I looked at were that way.

Rick Brown wrote:

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:

Eric Stanley wrote:The competitor currently shows as getting a trophy.

The trophies are not accurate according to our supp regs, and those are preliminary and that's just because the AXWare software displays it like that. So don't read too much into it.

Actually they are accurate. 1 for 3, 2 for 5, 1 for each additional 5. Programmed into AXWare and all the ones I looked at were that way.

Ah that's great Rick. I remember you had mentioned awhile back that AXWare had a bug in regards to the "T" for Trophies in the standings.

Steve Ekstrand wrote:But truthfully there really isn't a way to dispute cone calls.

If you do this long enough you'll be burned.

The only hope is guidance to the workers so they are clear on the rules and the job. But they are human and usually short handed and when things get chaotic, mistakes are inevitable.

Its a limitation to our sport I don't think you can fix.

I went down this road once, at the divisional, as I was CONVINCED I did not hit 3 cones in the Chi box on my best run. Steve was Chief of Protest or something close to that. As it turns out cones upheld, once they are called in & written down the only thing that has a real chance at overturning a cone call is a rear pointing camera. I do think miss calls do happen but unless the course worker who sets/calls the cone is willing to recant the call, it's hasta la vista bayby.

If I were radio & saw anyone on course other than my workers, I would (and have - once or twice) call T&S to hold the start.