Cal Club Autocross Forums

Matthew is in the midst of college applications. He's planning on majoring in computer science & electrical engineering, and the current list of schools he's planning to apply to is (in alphabetical order, so as not to imply any favorites): Caltech, California Poly San Luis Obispo, Carnegie Mellon, Franklin W. Olin College of Engineering, Harvey Mudd, Kettering University, MIT, and UC Berkeley.

He's been working really hard on application essays and scholarship applications, and he's losing a little steam. In particular, he's wondering if he really should apply to some of the schools on the list. He's politically conservative, and is really wondering about Berkeley. I know there are some of you out there that either went to Berkeley or had friends who did or who are big fans of the Golden Bears. If you have useful information that would help Matt make good decisions about his applications, please post it--but please don't make Aaron move this thread to the Political sub-board!

Come to think of it, if you have anything to say about any of the schools on his list, chime in. (At this point, he's NOT looking to add any schools to his list, so although that could be useful to Jon [who's planning on aerospace engineering], suggestions for additional schools to look at would not be particularly helpful for Matt.)

I'm kind of in the same boat right now. At Santa Monica College planning on transferring to another school within the next year for mechanical engineering or physics with a minor in business marketing. If he's a conservative, like myself, I would strongly advise against Berkley. A friend of mine graduated from their engineering school, and said the media coverage of hippies does it no justice, that it is ten times worse. There are plenty of great schools on that list far more prestigious for any sort of physical science major. If I could get into MIT or CALTECH, I would be there in a heartbeat.

I graduated from the UC Berkeley graduate school of Architecture in 1995.
And while it was a bit of a system shock coming from orange county, it's more like a giant Gap commercial than a hippie commune.

Go for it Matt! It's the perfect opportunity to subvert your provincialism. ;)

Berkeley was too much culture shock for me. Maybe I would've been better with it at 22 instead of 18, but I was pretty miserable in that environment and I had a good number of friends and my brother there as my roommate.

The campus itself is wonderful, the professors and curriculum are outstanding and the weather was a refreshing change, but the drug subculture, homelessness and begging were overwhelming for me at that age. Perhaps that's changed though.

Mike

I went up to orientation week as a freshman in the Engineering school at Berkeley. I couldn't get comfortable and bailed to Occidental. I really liked the academic side. It was the living conditions I couldn't deal with at the time. I didn't get campus housing. I was really on my own in terms of support those days. So, I didn't make it up to scout housing. I couldn't find anything I could afford in the range I was willing to walk. The response from counselors was pure hippie. Live in your car. Bathrooms at the park. Yeah....

If I had a better support system (like Matthew has) I probably would have made it there fine. I have minor regrets there. I'm really not concerned with the political thing. I'm always looking for the best academic setting. And EE courses rarely involve much discussion of Karl Marx. I have many friends from Berkeley and all of them love the school and most of them are pretty conservative now (Puertas excluded ).


Oh yeah.... Harvey Mudd is pretty cool. I was heavily recruited by them and blew them off. Going to Oxy, and having a lot of interaction with other SCIAC schools, I think I would have been happier at Harvey Mudd.

Everybody I've ever encountered from MIT is scary brilliant and successful. CalTech grads run the gamut from alien encounter to...Are you serious? You went to CalTech. I bailed on that school too after a weekend. But I was 13 and had a tan.

I think you might be getting better feedback then I might provide, but I did grow up around the area, and have many friends that were students there, mostly in the graduate programs, as well as faculty - none however, in the sciences/engineering.

From one that was there in the very early '70s and saw stuff like naked kids running around Telegraph Ave. (sort of the Main street of Bezerkeley) and pooping into the gutter, to visiting there now (my best friend lives near the campus) I can say this: IT IS NOT THE BEZERKELEY FROM THE MOVIES! Yes, far more liberal than BYU, where I went, but you're as likely to find an undergraduate in a business suit as you are an Eco-terrorist-in-training. The only way you're really gonna know is go up there and see for yourself - walk around and get a feel of the place!

My son went to Cal Poly SLO in Computer Science and absolutely loved it there. They have a great program and the "small school" atmosphere was exactly what he was looking for. If Matthew is someone that learns by being involved and getting his hands dirty, it is the perfect place. The school is friendly and the department was fantastic. My son stayed in the region after graduation and had a job (that he still has) 3 days after graduation.

I went to school in Pittsburgh so I know Carnegie Mellon. Another great school, but a far cry from anything in California. I know you were at State College at some point, and therefore understand Pennsylvania, but Pittsburgh is a big city and very different from everywhere in California but SF and Berkley (and certainly State College).

Where ever he goes from that list should be fine.

My brother went to Berkley, double majored in Math and Computer Science. He's never had anything but great things to say about the experience. Though, like me he's also a Jew from the Bay Area so I wouldn't call us exactly conservative.

I gotta say the town is a million times nicer now than it was even in the mid-90's when he was there. Great restaurants, great college town/small city atmosphere.. plus it's 1 bridge away from San Fransisco another awesome place to hang out.

I'm really happy and proud for Matthew...how cool.

Here's my best advice for prospective engineering students.

You go to a name school for the connections, not for a superior education. Truth is, any school is only as good as you make it and many of 'the best' are actually far more difficult to get an education from because the profs are way more interested in advancing their career than in educating kids. Attending a name private school also usually comes with a significant cost. IF the value of the connections exceeds the cost, the private school is a wise investment. Most people I know arent that far into six-figs by 25 and struggle miserably for many years under the debt load. Also, if you're primarily a 'connections' person - science and engineering might not be what you need to focus on while in school.

It's most important to first know yourself well enough to know what you need to learn so that you can seek out the right environment. I had to work while in school and realized that I never could be what I thought I wanted when I was eighteen, then twenty, then twenty-three. (there was a year that I wanted to be a shrink because, hey, sit and get paid $200/hr!) Interning while in school will create delays towards the completion of each degree, and will also both pay the bills and infinitely (!) make job hunting easier when school is over. A simple majority of engineering managers I've known simply won't consider hiring an engineer that didn't work while they were in school because these folks are overwhelmingly useless in real life. (the right answer to "do you work on your car" is "yes, except for the stuff that requires special tools")

Finding the right combination of professors and students that you can learn from is probably the single most critical aspect to determining how much someone can absorb during their university years. (for me, at least, this was KEY - I learned more from three professors and four other students than from all the rest combined)

Personal comfort matters. Someone who is miserable emotionally will have a more difficult time dealing with the rest of their life. I needed to be far away from my family, others do poorly without the support. (the Gfamily in SLO could be a tipper)

Not making the best possible decision today will not automatically result in failure tomorrow - usually only a delay in getting where you would get to anyway. Don't give yourself health issues by worrying about things too much. At the end of the day, it's not that big of a deal unless ego means more than true success.

One other thing - Matthew really should consider UCI. YEah, I know...I went there for grad - yeah, yeah, yeah. I've got a hunch that it's perfect for him. Research before passing judgement. Also, UCSB Engineering is FAR more highly regarded than the rest of the place.

Aaron Goldsmith wrote: I gotta say the town is a million times nicer now than it was even in the mid-90's when he was there. Great restaurants, great college town/small city atmosphere.. plus it's 1 bridge away from San Fransisco another awesome place to hang out.

I entered the summer of 1984. And some areas where pretty sketchy, including areas I'd have to walk through to get to campus. Again, 17yo white boy from Ventura...
When Stacey and I were up there for the divie, we toured all around Berkeley and except for the loons in the trees the place had really cleaned up. So, much was better than 24 years ago, I did feel the regrets coming.

One thing I've had to deal with is name recognition. I lost a scholarship once because the organizers thought Occidental College was where you went to be a dental hygienist. Doing international business all through the 90's left me with "you went where?" That's when I wish I had gone to a Berkeley, CalTech, MIT, Yale, Harvard, Stanford. Matthew has a good shot to get into those places that make others envious. I had that shot and passed it by. But like Larry said comfort was a big deal, and Oxy took care of me. Knew everybody there. Had lunch with my professors, had tiny classes as a freshman and sophmore. No teaching assistants for the most part. Really a sweet experience. Just no name recognition. With great family support and knowledge of the academic world, I think Matthew has a better chance of thriving anywhere.

I've got an IP lawyer friend who graduated top of her class at Duke and now knocks down two-fitty plus in DC. She finished with a buck-forty in debt for law school and has been forced to live (for her) painfully frugally and refi the debt multiple times. She's glad that she did what she did but grudgingly concedes that she probably would be in the same place career-wise and ahead of the game now financially if she'd taken the free-ride at Wake. (I was like - they're going to PAY you thirty grand a year to go to school there on top of everything else free?!?!?! Don't think I've ever been more jealous of anyone in my life - and she turned it down to go to dook)

Like Steve said - name recognition has it's place in the world. For most *engineers*, it's more of an ego thing than anything else and tends to drive away coworkers that can't get past petty jealousies. For managers and business types, it's the right tool for the job. I'm the worst manager I know...for me it's a total waste.

I'll second Larry's suggestion for UCI.
I got my BA there, and although I graduated with a Comp Lit degree, I started as a Physics major.
Don't ask. But it does explain the Architecture thing I think...

Anyway, I was the liaison to the Engineering department for the study abroad program (has he considered Cambridge?), and I know some very successful people who have been through the CS program at UCI.
I could probably even get him a job with my friend who is responsible for IT for the UCI business school.

Go Anteaters!

As others have said, I don't think you can make a mistake choosing from that list, or a few of the other schools that have been suggested.
I do think that the big name schools are more about connections than education, and I think people tend to stay close to the school after graduation. That means the connections are usually more valuable closer to the school. So, where do you want to live and work after graduation? Of course if you're going to grad school, someplace like UCI for undergrad is a pretty sound starting point.

Matt, if you want to talk about UCI or Cal, (or Cambridge ) feel free to call me.

That list of colleges is, as Darth Vader said in a Empire Strikes Back

Impressive.....MOST Impressive

I received my B.A. in CIS back in NY (Iona College), but here in SoCal for my M.S. in CS, I applied to lots of schools and I went for the big name and got in. USC. Stanford, UCLA, UCSD, UC-Berkeley, Stanford were too tough for me. UCS's reputation is way bigger now than when I got in (1993) but if I had your choices you cannot beat MIT, Cal Tech, RPI (Rensellar Polytechnic Institute in upstate NY), Carnegie Mellon in Pittsburgh. As for engineering in Cal? They are the first UC school in the UC system, and they created Berekely Unix, but I personally would choose Stanford which I'm surprised is not on your list and they too are up in the Bay Area (Palo Alto).

But like most have mentioned, NAME recognition will go a long way in the real world once you've graduated. I'm in 6-figures deep in student loans...but I have the 6-figure salary-rope to pull myself out of it. A degree from a name school will get you hired over the same degree from say Cal-State Dominguez Hills. It just opens doors for you and that's the reality. Don't get me wrong, the education was great at USC and I don't regret it but if I had to do it over again, I'd think a bit harder as financially the cost is now DOUBLE per year ($50k) than it was for me 10yrs ago ($25k).

Between Stanford and Berkeley, I'd choose Stanford. Between Cal Tech and MIT, I'd go MIT (pro of Cal Tech is you're close to your family). If you're conservative then Stanford is good, so is Carnegie Mellon, MIT. Don't stress about it. Just apply and see where you get in...THEN make your pick.

What about Georgia Tech? At one time, it received the largest amount of engineering research grant money from the feds of any school.

I recently read a newspaper article that basically stated that the larger the student loan, taken out to go to a top school, the larger your potential to earn. I HOPE SO! My son's college, Sarah Lawrence, is over $54K! He's got a huge amount of scholarships, gifting and a work/study program (limited to no more then 10 to 12 hours/week) but even so his student loan will be pretty hefty. One of the reasons for going to that school is their connections and internships with the publishing, arts, photography and writing "industries" of NYC, ie. connections.

I've got two friends who's daughters have student loans over $120K, but they're STARTING salary's are $120 and $140K ... law firms ... who even help them get home loans, help with moving costs, etc! Another colleague's wife is a salaried head hunter for software engineer graduates. They offer starting salaries of $100K. But they're looking nationwide for only the very best. She gets a $1K bonus for each new employee that she brings in. When the individual employees accompany her to college job fairs, to the schools they graduated from, they get a $1K bonus.

A former work colleague left our industry to go back to school, USB Mechanical Engineering, which he loves, but it helps that his wife recently took a teaching position there.

Hmmmm... Cambridge.... Misty eyes....

Trying to imagine John Maynard Keynes walking out of his oral defense with Alfred Marshall chasing him down the steps of Kings College Hall. I'm sure the planet got a little wobbly on its axis that day.

Sorry... Econ Geek daydreaming.

My best friend that I grew up with got a special TWO year Rhodes Scholarship for Oxford (LOVED it) ... and then a Fullbright Scholarship at Berkley. He's now a professor of Classics at UCSB.

He was a Skateboarder/Climber dude, University of Colorado, came out to Cal Tech for his Rhodes Scholarship interview, got excepted, asked me to take him to a preppy clothing store ... we lived near Westwood back then, and overnight he went completely Collegiate.

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:What about Georgia Tech?

They're good too along with UI-UC (Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champagne)

Giovanni Jaramillo wrote:

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:What about Georgia Tech?

They're good too along with UI-UC (Univ. of Illinois at Urbana-Champagne)

UofI has always had a big computer program, both in Champagne and the Chicago campus.

Mary,

If Matt would like to talk to someone attending Berkley right now (who went straight there after high school) then we can get Heather to set up a conversation between Matt and Charles (Heather's boyfriend), he might even be in town for the holiday. He is majoring in Chemistry.

I can also offer up a friends daughter who went straight to Berkley from a local High School, at 15, after getting perfect SAT's, about four years ago.

Mako Koiwai wrote:I can also offer up a friends daughter ...

Hmm, Matt might enjoy that!

Sorry, just couldn't resist!

... ok ... got a good chuckle out of me.

She was too young to go to Berkley on her own, living off campus at 16 as a sophomore, etc. There were some problems, I think she took some time off ... while working at Lawrence Livermore. Waiting to get an update on what she's up to now.

One word: hydroponics.
;)

No Kurt, that's Santa Cruz.

It never ceases to amaze me how few people actually know what an utter freakfest that little town really is. SF and Berk have nothing on it. I know exactly zero normal people from SC. There are normal people in SC, but you can't see them for the parade of nutjobs. More 'Burning Man' participants in one place than Burning Man itself.

SF is just another big city with the attendant rampant anger and grumpy people. Berkeley clearly used to be fairly nasty, now it's obviously a lot less nasty. It clearly didn't destroy Mike or Robert.

One relevant tidbit for Matt - It's probably a very good idea for him to figure out where he'll fall on the hardware/software divide sooner than later. Both is also an acceptable answer. That decision (or self-realization) will provide a better answer to the question of which school is best than practically anything else offered up so far.