Cal Club Autocross Forums

There has been a great deal of discussion on some other forums lately regarding the reformulation of most of the (consumer grade) non racing motor oil.

Zinc (a very good lubricant/protectant for engines) has been reduced or eliminated in an effort to extend the life of cat converters & save the planet.

Not posting to get into the politics of it all, but I am simply posting to find out if anyone has switched to the Redline and/or Amsoil oils which I understand have kept the traditional higher levels of zinc.

My factory recommends Mobil 1, which has gone lower in zinc, OTOH GM knows nothing about the operating conditions under which I personally use the car.

I am thinking of a switch as I'd soomer replace a cat than an LS6 engine.

Thanks!

For more info than most need check out http://www.bobistheoilguy.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

IMHO, FWIW, ...

I think the effects of the reduction in zinc in engine oils have been greatly exaggerated (one of the drawbacks of the Internet and Google). There are other additives that replace the lubricity lost from the zinc reduction. Do your own oil analysis and come to your own conclusion. Attached is a link to an on going analysis of oil types and wear in the Nissan VQ35 engine. I've contributed to this running Mobil 1 in my autocross/track 350Z.

http://my350z.com/forum/engine-and-driv ... -info.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't imagine much of a problem in modern roller cammed motors. But I can buy into cam failures on the old stuff.

If you're worried....
http://www.zddplus.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We discussed about this issue with a Mobile 1 rep at SEMA. He recommended their motorcycle oil or a new semi-racing oil coming out. We may have the chart that shows the Zinc content, and he also said it should be on their website.

Edit, found this on the Mobile 1 site: http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/Mot ... epage.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"In general, Mobil 1 motorcycle oils have:
Additive packages balanced differently for motorcycle engine and transmission operation. For passenger vehicles, fuel economy and emission system protection are higher priorities. These require low phosphorus systems and the use of friction modifiers. Motorcycle oils do not require friction modifiers for fuel economy and for better clutch friction less/no friction modifier is optimum. Motorcycle oils allow the use of higher levels of antiwear additives such as ZDDP (phosphorous)."

And

"You say the new Mobil 1 Racing oils are not for street use. Why is that? Does that mean I can't use these oils if my race car is also my daily driver?

Automotive street use oils that meet the latest industry standards are required to have a lower level of Zinc and Phosphorus anti-wear chemistries than oils formulated years ago. The latest automotive street use engine oils are designed to be compatible with emission control equipment. Mobil 1 Racing oils are formulated with anti-wear (Zinc/Phosphorus) chemistries at twice the level of automotive street oils to provide enhanced protection of highly loaded valve train systems found in some race engines. Based on the high level of anti-wear chemistries, Mobil 1 Racing oils are not recommended for street use."


Rick

Mine has Zinc: http://www.gopurepower.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This has been a huge problem in the aircooled community. Brad Penn Racing Oils are what those in the know are using that need a ZDDP rich oil.

Steve Ekstrand wrote:I can't imagine much of a problem in modern roller cammed motors. But I can buy into cam failures on the old stuff.

If you're worried....
http://www.zddplus.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's not so much the valve lifters, it the high G problem in LS engines where the oil pressure momentarily goes low. With high zinc (and I am not a ME or chemist) there is a "protection" when metal to metal happens and the zinc gets instantly used up as a lube/protection. Then OP returns to normal and you have saved an engine.

Did you see the T1 runoffs where the Vette engine grenaded? Not saying that was from low zinc oil, but that is the scenario I wish to do all I can to avoid.

There continues to be lube problems with ls engines under extreme g loads. Not all of them & not all the time, but enough to make me want the BEST oil I can buy.

The approach I have been using so far is the overfill & frequent OCI (oil change interval) and it's probably sufficient.

I wonder how long M1 will continue to be original fill on the high end cars if they keep "cleaning up" the oil?




FYI


ZDDP has been an important additive to engine oils for over 70 years, and has an excellent track record at protecting the sliding metal-to-metal cam lifter interface. Historically, ZDDP has been added to oils in amounts resulting in approximately 0.15% phosphorus, and 0.18% zinc. ZDDP protects by creating a film on cams and flat lifter contact points in response to the extreme pressure and heat at the contact point. The film of zinc and phosphorus compounds provides a sacrificial wear surface protecting the base metal of the cam and lifter from wear. In the course of normal service, this conversion of ZDDP to zinc and phosphorus compounds depletes the ZDDP level in the oil. Studies show that depending on the specific engine and severity of duty, after 2000-4000 miles of operation, the level of ZDDP can drop below that considered adequate to provide wear protection to the cam and lifters.

Bob Plante wrote: It's not so much the valve lifters, it the high G problem in LS engines where the oil pressure momentarily goes low. With high zinc (and I am not a ME or chemist) there is a "protection" when metal to metal happens and the zinc gets instantly used up as a lube/protection. Then OP returns to normal and you have saved an engine.

Did you see the T1 runoffs where the Vette engine grenaded? Not saying that was from low zinc oil, but that is the scenario I wish to do all I can to avoid.

There continues to be lube problems with ls engines under extreme g loads.

The LS3 has issues that no oil is going to fix..... That is a hardware problem.

Jason Isley BS RX8 wrote:The LS3 has issues that no oil is going to fix..... That is a hardware problem.

So you're saying that he's using the wrong hammer to pound in the screw?

I believe Terry Free and his C6 Z-06 track car's engine have also been victims ... to the hardware issues.

It would seem that in recent years GM has truly found how hard you can spin that old push-rod. Terry's is the only C6Z that I have heard of having a problem, and that is certainly not a stock car, so its hard to say what the real issue was. On the other hand, even a stock LS3 can not take high G turns without spitting parts. The only engine issue the C5Z seemed to have was timing chain failures if you bump the rev limiter, stock ones appear to be bullet proof.

I had a new C6-Z06 go blaamo 20 yards in front of me exiting turn 2 at Cal Speedway last month. Parts, flame, and smoke came out from under that Corvette at a buck fifty and I went right to keep from running over rods and block chunks. His whole rear bumper cover lit on fire as he went straight past turn 3.

This is not an oil additive problem...

You come into the pits to change socks John???

It was more of a surprise then anything scary. I guess the engine was going as he went through the turn and I caught him. I'm just grateful that I decided to stay behind him in turn 2 instead of passing on the outside. The track was red flagged so I stopped before the bridge, turned on the AC, and listened to KROQ for about 15 minutes.

John Coffey wrote:I had a new C6-Z06 go blaamo 20 yards in front of me exiting turn 2 at Cal Speedway last month. Parts, flame, and smoke came out from under that Corvette at a buck fifty and I went right to keep from running over rods and block chunks. His whole rear bumper cover lit on fire as he went straight past turn 3.
This is not an oil additive problem...

Yep, seen it too on Sunday at Cal Speed in November.

I wrote an article for Sand Sports Magazine about modern oils in the July/August 2007 issue (still available) and discussed how zinc and phosphorous percentages have gone from 0.12-0.14 down to 0.08 and the problems that we have seen in the engine rebuilding industry regarding flat cams, etc.

I use Shell Rotell T (10W30) in the Fiat 850 and like it a lot. Sure, it's a diesel (C for compression ignition) rated oil, but it tends to keep ash and particulate matter in suspension for easy filtration, the S (spark ignition) rated oils allow these to drop out and pile up over time - no matter how much you change your oil. Now, if you coould find some old SE SF rated oils, you would have the right amount of the good stuff in the can, currently we are in the SL and SM ratings. Castorl R sure sounds good right about now, huh? I like the smell of the bean oil.

As for the synthetics, they are really good. You do, however, need to break in your engine first before you start using them. I've seen several engines where the rings didn't seat correctly and had to come apart to touch up the hone job. The synthetic blends are also good and don't require as much time for the engine to seat in.

I run engines on the Simtester to do a lost-stress break-in before I hand them over to my clients. When they do go out the door, I generally hand them a bottle of the Comp Cams break-in concentrate. I also add several ounces to my oil during a change. You need some sort of addative even with roller cams. We install higher pressure springs to insure good contact with the cam lobe, but that too puts more pressure on the lobes, even if they are made of steel or some sort of powdered metal matrix.

Signing off for now....

Very quickly, here's a link to see a Shelby GT500 engine on the Simtester, I knew that you would ask "what is a Simtester".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hghutgMj ... annel_page" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks John for the post.

This is a tough problem for an engine that is both street & track (autox). Don't want to kill the cats & don't want to grenade the engine.

My guess is for autox the duration of the g's that cause oiling issues in some LS motors is not long enough to be a problem, but on a track long high speed sweeper it is.

Bob Plante wrote:Thanks John for the post.

This is a tough problem for an engine that is both street & track (autox). Don't want to kill the cats & don't want to grenade the engine.

My guess is for autox the duration of the g's that cause oiling issues in some LS motors is not long enough to be a problem, but on a track long high speed sweeper it is.

If you are using standard Mobile 1, why not use their other oils? My understanding was the street formula was changed for a new emissions requirement, but not because it killed the cats.

Rick

Richard Jung wrote:

Bob Plante wrote:Thanks John for the post.

This is a tough problem for an engine that is both street & track (autox). Don't want to kill the cats & don't want to grenade the engine.

My guess is for autox the duration of the g's that cause oiling issues in some LS motors is not long enough to be a problem, but on a track long high speed sweeper it is.

If you are using standard Mobile 1, why not use their other oils? My understanding was the street formula was changed for a new emissions requirement, but not because it killed the cats.

Rick

Taking the zddp out helps the cats live longer (A goal of the epa & signed onto by the car mfgs.)

Other (racing) Mobil one oils - sometimes hard to find & sometimes just not available, are higher in the zddp & other lubes/additives that help race engines live better BUT these additives NOT good for cats.

Bob Plante wrote:

Richard Jung wrote:

Bob Plante wrote:Thanks John for the post.

This is a tough problem for an engine that is both street & track (autox). Don't want to kill the cats & don't want to grenade the engine.

My guess is for autox the duration of the g's that cause oiling issues in some LS motors is not long enough to be a problem, but on a track long high speed sweeper it is.

If you are using standard Mobile 1, why not use their other oils? My understanding was the street formula was changed for a new emissions requirement, but not because it killed the cats.

Rick

Taking the zddp out helps the cats live longer (A goal of the epa & signed onto by the car mfgs.)

Other (racing) Mobil one oils - sometimes hard to find & sometimes just not available, are higher in the zddp & other lubes/additives that help race engines live better BUT these additives NOT good for cats.

I wonder if "twice" the ZDDP in the M1 motorcycle or new race oils, is roughly the same amount as the discontinued standard formula?

I use street auto Mobil 1. I have thought about switching to Amsoil.

A guy at a shop (builds drag cars) said they have had good results using Royal Purple. They were losing engines on regular oil, and royal purple (RP) supposedly helped a lot. They also sell RP, not sure which came first, using it or selling it. I always have to wonder about motive when people endose a product.

I guess i need to start sending in oil for analysis.

BUT these additives NOT good for cats.

Cats? Seriously? Don't they have nine lives? Don't they live long enough? Don't we have a cat overpopulation problem? Plus, they're not nearly as cool as dogs. :mrt:

Here is some good info on ZDDP and oils from the air cooled community:

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;