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I am posting this a public service message even though there is a political side to it.

As part of the stimulus plan, the fed is offering a $1,500 rebate on the installation of a tankless water heater. Sooner or later, you will be tempted to install one of these 21st century marvels. And please, if despite what I write here, you want one, please give me a shot at the deal.

Reasons given to buy one:

1. Saves energy - This is true, but not as much as you think. The energy saved is the basically the diference in the amount of heat loss through the walls of a storage tank vs zero heat loss if there is no stored hot water. My guess as far as savings is around $2 a month.

2. Unlimited hot water, you'll never run out again - False. The amount of hot water produced is limited by the BTU of the tankless water heater and is greatly affected by the temperature of the incoming water supply. In the winter, when the incoming water is cold, you may be limited to using on one fixture at a time. That said, if you have a large tub requiring more hot water than that stored in you storage tank, a tankless may be for you.

3. You will have instant hot water at each fixture - False. This is a popular misconception. The cold water resting in the piping still has to be purged from the line before the hot water begins to flow. You will not notice any difference in wait time by installing a tankless in the same place as your existing tank type water heater.

4. They take up less space - True. If you are space challenged, these can be a godsend.

Reasons not to buy:

1. Tankless water heaters require maintenance - That's right. You probably don't give much thought to your hot water supply now because storage type water heaters don't require any. But is you live in a hard water area, which is most of Southern California, and have not invested in and are committed to a water softner, you will begin having problems with your new pride and joy within 2-4 years. Regular maintenance is required to prevent hard water deposits from destroying or at a minimum, interrupting your hot water supply. It takes about an hour to perform and should be done about twice a year.

2. Energy savings are minimal and will not be offset by the hassle and expense to the maintenance required.

3. Initial installation costs are about double that of a conventional tank type water heater. Many I have seen have been improperly installed with gas lines so small that the water heater will not work at full capacity.

4. If electrical supply is interrupted, so is your shower. Electricity is required for a tankless to produce hot water. There were a few that don't require electricity but they were unreliable.

5. Cost and inconvenience: Not only are these units far more expensive, the costs of ongoing ownership will bury you in most cases.

6. A tank type water heater is as reliable as appliances get and require little thought is sized and installed properly. They will provide hot water in time of electrical outage and to a limited extent, a gas interruption as well as you have the stored water to draw on.

Now the political part. The government is attempting to affect your behavior by wagging a $1,500 rebate in front of your face. Know the facts before investing. This is reminiscent of the government meddling of the Carter administration and all of the abandoned solar hot water systems that without government subsidies, made absolutely no sense. If a tankless water heater made sense, everyone would want one without the government getting involved. If after knowing the facts it makes sense for you, the $1500 rebate is a bonus.

Very popular in Europe ... but often for smaller needs ... not for whole house applications. Does their having 220V's make a difference ?

I talked my dad out of one. We have one and I love it. Our hot water heater was inside the house in the kitchen. We had to move it obviously, but really didn't have a great location for a full sized water heater. The tankless solved that easily. It works great but we have outrageously hard water, so we're screwed. And has part of our whole house remodel and repipe, we really didn't consider the outrageous cost. I considered the electricity issue, but figure my two jumpboxes can power it in the event of a prolonged blackout or an inverter off my truck.

So, as much as our choice made some sense, I have talked friends and family out of it. We figured its about 5 times more expensive than a premium large capacity tank style.

Mako Koiwai wrote:Very popular in Europe ... but often for smaller needs ... not for whole house applications. Does their having 220V's make a difference ?

The ones I used in Europe were all gas. I think its just a function of having tiny apartments and flats. My private apartment in Russia had one even though the city provides hot water. But that system is out atleast one month of year in any one section. So, it was nice to have the back up.

hmmm ... the Instant Hot Water heaters we saw in Germany where electric

While we're on the "consumer alert" bandwagon, here are a couple of other things you should know. And no politics!

Plastic plumbing fittings. Look under your toilet. If you have a flex hose leading from the stop valve to the toilet tank, and the nut holding it to the tank is plastic, and if its more than a few years old or if you don't know if it was installed properly (or if you see tool marks on it), replace it. Some of the early models were made of plastic which degrades in the presence of chlorine, as in chlorinated water. Many early plastic fittings are a little weak, and if they're overtightened the can break (often months or years later), flooding your house. Newer replacements are stronger, and cost around $4 . Cheap and easy fix. These things have failed by the thousands, and the results are water damage and mold.

Also, beware your clothes dryer. Lint can build up inside it, particularly modern designs, even if the lint screen is kept clean. The built up lint is a fire hazard. Often the fire is contained to the metal dryer housing. But if there's are combustibles nearby (like folded clothes on top), they can cause the fire to spread. A major homeowners insurer reports and average of 125 dryer fires per month, nationally. Modern dryers contain, buried in their owners manuals, instructions to disassemble the dryer every 18 months and thoroughly clean the lint out. This service would cost around $300 if anyone ever did it, which they don't. So keep your lint screen clean, keep combustibles away, clean out your dryer, and install a smoke alarm near it.

By the way, the manufacturer of the plumbing fittings is defending hundreds of lawsuits nationally based on the defective design and construction of the fittings. No recall has been issued. The manufacturer of the primary clothes dryers at issue claims that they can't duplicate the problem in their labs, but they recognize that there are a large volume of fires involving fairly new, properly installed products. Again, no recalls. In both cases, any public recognition of the problem is going to be litigation driven. Hopefully after a few big verdicts, they'll straighten out and fix their designs.

I almost always use the lowest heat setting possible. The high (normal) heat settings kills elastic ... in your undies, socks and you know Stretchy Pants ... "just for Fun": Jack Black ... Nacho Libre

Mako Koiwai wrote:hmmm ... the Instant Hot Water heaters we saw in Germany where electric

I've thought about getting one as a secondary, installed on the opposite end of the house. Takes several minutes for the water to get hot in the master bath.

Mako Koiwai wrote:I almost always use the lowest heat setting possible. The high (normal) heat settings kills elastic ... in your undies, socks and you know Stretchy Pants ... "just for Fun": Jack Black ... Nacho Libre

is that why i keep having to replace stuff?

i turn my heat on el scorcho.

if i'm not walking out of my shower looking like a cooked lobster, the water was too cold.

Mako Koiwai wrote:hmmm ... the Instant Hot Water heaters we saw in Germany where electric

Apples and oranges Mako. What you're talking about is actually a small storage tank type electric water heater. I holds about 2 quarts of water.

We had a re-circulating pump that worked great ... 3,500 sq. ft. house and almost instant hot water. I guess the plumping had to be designed with that pump ... small pump ... in mind.

Also had a solar water pre warmer on the roof ... took the water going into the water heater up to 125 degrees.

We had it serviced ... they did something wrong ... pressurized vs not pressurized ... a pipe blew up in the attic ... water down through the house. Couldn't be repaired ... the solar company had gone out of business. I don't think we got enough of a settlement?!

Jeff Shyu wrote:

Mako Koiwai wrote:I almost always use the lowest heat setting possible. The high (normal) heat settings kills elastic ... in your undies, socks and you know Stretchy Pants ... "just for Fun": Jack Black ... Nacho Libre

is that why i keep having to replace stuff?

i turn my heat on el scorcho.

if i'm not walking out of my shower looking like a cooked lobster, the water was too cold.

just after the 1 min mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McugOa3JmbQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dilbert: [Dilbert is in the shower, with a voice activated temperature control] The shower's calibrated to respond to my voice only.
Dogbert: Boy, you think of everything.
Dilbert: I'm cautious.
Dogbert: That's why you had training wheels until you were seventeen
Dilbert: I was fourteen.
[Shower temperature goes to 14 degrees]
Dilbert: AAAAAAGH!
[Almost frozen in a block of ice]
Dilbert: 99! 99! 99!
[The temperature goes back to 99]
Dilbert: Don't do that!
Dogbert: Where did you get the voice for that thing, it sounds like the computer from that stupid movie, what was it, "Something, something, a Space Odyssey?"
Dilbert: It wasn't called "Something Something: A Space Odyssey," it was called "2001: A Space AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!"
[cut to exterior of house, as Dilbert's shower rises to 2001 degrees, cut to interior of house where Dilbert's skin is red hot, he puts on his towel which catches on fire as he walks out]
Dogbert: On the plus side, you look very clean.

I hate it when my Lycra gets scorched.

When our 65 gallon water heater had to be replace, that size was no longer available ... so they (appliance/home insurance) put in a (more efficient, better insulated) 80 gallon heater plus gave us a nice check for the difference in price (huh) ?! Never ran out of hot water with that puppy!

Mako Koiwai wrote:We had a re-circulating pump that worked great ... 3,500 sq. ft. house and almost instant hot water. I guess the plumping had to be designed with that pump ... small pump ... in mind.

Also had a solar water pre warmer on the roof ... took the water going into the water heater up to 125 degrees.

We had it serviced ... they did something wrong ... pressurized vs not pressurized ... a pipe blew up in the attic ... water down through the house. Couldn't be repaired ... the solar company had gone out of business. I don't think we got enough of a settlement?!

Part of the nightmare of the government stimulus from the Carter years. Your story is not unique. If it doesn't make sense without government subsidies, it probably isn't worth having.

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:I've thought about getting one as a secondary, installed on the opposite end of the house. Takes several minutes for the water to get hot in the master bath.

Bob, I have a $200 solution to your problem if you can do the work yourself. Let me know when you're ready and I'll fill you in.

George Schilling wrote:

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:I've thought about getting one as a secondary, installed on the opposite end of the house. Takes several minutes for the water to get hot in the master bath.

Bob, I have a $200 solution to your problem if you can do the work yourself. Let me know when you're ready and I'll fill you in.

Interesting. It's on the list of things to do after I get job.

George Schilling wrote:

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:I've thought about getting one as a secondary, installed on the opposite end of the house. Takes several minutes for the water to get hot in the master bath.

Bob, I have a $200 solution to your problem if you can do the work yourself. Let me know when you're ready and I'll fill you in.

Not to speak out of turn, but I'm interested. I was about to buy and install this myself: http://www.chilipepperapp.com/

I think we need to start a plumbing forum. Maybe a political plumbing forum.

Damn the Copper Mafya

Kevin Price wrote:

George Schilling wrote:

Bob Beamesderfer wrote:I've thought about getting one as a secondary, installed on the opposite end of the house. Takes several minutes for the water to get hot in the master bath.

Bob, I have a $200 solution to your problem if you can do the work yourself. Let me know when you're ready and I'll fill you in.

Not to speak out of turn, but I'm interested. I was about to buy and install this myself: http://www.chilipepperapp.com/

I think we need to start a plumbing forum. Maybe a political plumbing forum.

That's similar to what I had in mind for Bob, although I'm not familiar with that particular product. The one I would recommend would mount on the water heater rather than under the sink as electricity is usually available nearby. Similar in operation though. I like the remote control operation of the one you mention. Most work off timers. The remote makes more sense if you don't shower the same time each day. I saw on at Costco, though I didn't pay attention to the details of operation.

We have a typical '70s ranch house, single story. Water heater is in an outside closet at the back corner, very close to the electrical panel. Master bed/bath on the opposite end of the back of the house. Interestingly, the gas meter is on the far end from the water heater toward the front corner.

House was built in 1973 and has an overhead copper re-pipe, shoddy job I might add. Wall openings for pipes running from the water heater cabinet into the kitchen were left rough, as were those feeding supply lines to sinks. I filled the openings between the water heater cabinet, ie, the outside, to the kitchen when I installed a new dishwasher three years ago. It was fun discovering that the propellant for polyurethane foam is flammable, so spraying it near the water heater was a bit more exciting than I expected—singed a lot of hair off my right arm.

http://www.grundfos.com/web/HomeUs.nsf/ ... MAT-6DMQV8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've installed a couple hundred of these. They work great. Doesn't work with tankless, will increase gas useage, will decrease water useage.

Eric Clements wrote:http://www.grundfos.com/web/HomeUs.nsf/ ... MAT-6DMQV8

I've installed a couple hundred of these. They work great. Doesn't work with tankless, will increase gas useage, will decrease water useage.

interesting. but kinda ugly to install since most people don't have a plug under the sink?.. >_<

Jeff Shyu wrote:

Eric Clements wrote:http://www.grundfos.com/web/HomeUs.nsf/ ... MAT-6DMQV8

I've installed a couple hundred of these. They work great. Doesn't work with tankless, will increase gas useage, will decrease water useage.

interesting. but kinda ugly to install since most people don't have a plug under the sink?.. >_<

This one install on the water heater. A thermostatic cut-off installs at the farthest fixture away from the water heater. The pump continues to run but water is not allowed to flow after the temperature demand is met. The pump is controlled by a timer/clock.

But doesn't a "no return" style system make your cold-water hot? So you trade waiting on hot-water for waiting on cold-water?

sc