Cal Club Autocross Forums

I want to thank everyone who made my 1 year of autocross so much fun. As some of you know, I spun a bearing in my 08 STI during the last event. Subaru googled me and found me on this forum, and promptly denied any warranty coverage. So, I have a car that has been meticulously maintained for 46000 miles and 8 autocrosses (no practices, even), with a (current estimate) $10000 engine replacement needed. #301 is retired. I took this risk knowingly, as many of us do, but I guess I had convinced myself the likelihood was too low to worry about. Not so. This is a serious financial burden for me. I don't know if I will be able to afford keeping the car after the repair, but definitely can't afford to autoX it anymore and risk another blown engine. A lot of should'ves and would'ves have gone through my head over the past few days, but this is the reality.

Merry Christmas

I'm typically not one to accept defeat on an issue like this. I assume they denied warranty coverage. What was the reason?

George Schilling wrote:I'm typically not one to accept defeat on an issue like this. I assume they denied warranty coverage. What was the reason?

They say they found evidence of a tuning device on my car, via a control number mismatch on the ECU. This is true but the car was running stock tune, as required in STU, and the device was there for datalogging purposes only, a means of me trying to PREVENT engine failure. Ironic. Anyway, once they found that, they googled me and found my autoX results. Racing/competitive driving/whatever you want to label it is explicity excluded in the warranty. So, with the two of these issues combined, they are not budging, no matter what I say.

Fight it. Suburu used to give out SCCA memberships. You're hardly a hardcore participant, you're just somebody who has come out and improved their driving several times. They may put that in their policy, but Federal or California law may give greater warranty protections. Even if their contractual warranty is voided by timed motorsports, their common law or maybe UCC "warranty of merchantability" may still offer protection. At least ask to take it to arbitration and google some of the big cases out there on just this point. Of course, watch out for the Stealers evil lawyers, like my wife. They are truly impossible to deal with. ;)

Next.... Very few racers would pay the full $10K stealer experience. See if a parts broker like Tom Berry can find you a same year low mileage motor and a referral to a mechanic or shop that will install it. I'm guessing you get it done for under $6K. Just a guess.

Good luck. I feel very bad for you as I'm sure we all do here.

Steve Ekstrand wrote: Next.... Very few racers would pay the full $10K stealer experience. See if a parts broker like Tom Berry can find you a same year low mileage motor and a referral to a mechanic or shop that will install it. I'm guessing you get it done for under $6K. Just a guess.

Good luck. I feel very bad for you as I'm sure we all do here.

also assuming the block is still in one piece it's not really that tough to repair a spun bearing. you really shouldn't need a whole new engine unless you punched a hole in the side of the block. post up some pics if you have any.

Steve Ekstrand wrote:Fight it. Suburu used to give out SCCA memberships. You're hardly a hardcore participant, you're just somebody who has come out and improved their driving several times. They may put that in their policy, but Federal or California law may give greater warranty protections. Even if their contractual warranty is voided by timed motorsports, their common law or maybe UCC "warranty of merchantability" may still offer protection. At least ask to take it to arbitration and google some of the big cases out there on just this point. Of course, watch out for the Stealers evil lawyers, like my wife. They are truly impossible to deal with. ;)

Next.... Very few racers would pay the full $10K stealer experience. See if a parts broker like Tom Berry can find you a same year low mileage motor and a referral to a mechanic or shop that will install it. I'm guessing you get it done for under $6K. Just a guess.

Good luck. I feel very bad for you as I'm sure we all do here.

What he said except I'm thinking about $4.5K with a used engine. But I would devise a plan to fight it first.

Marshall Grice wrote:

Steve Ekstrand wrote: Next.... Very few racers would pay the full $10K stealer experience. See if a parts broker like Tom Berry can find you a same year low mileage motor and a referral to a mechanic or shop that will install it. I'm guessing you get it done for under $6K. Just a guess.

Good luck. I feel very bad for you as I'm sure we all do here.

also assuming the block is still in one piece it's not really that tough to repair a spun bearing. you really shouldn't need a whole new engine unless you punched a hole in the side of the block. post up some pics if you have any.

I'm with Marshall on this one. Barring the domino effect, a spun bearing isn't too bad to replace.

Once you do, speak with Pete Loney about STI engine failures. Subaru seems to have a real problem with the current gen STI.

Mike

Ditto on the spun bearing repair. I know guys with 60's Chevy motors that seem to spin bearings monthly and they aren't tossing the motor.

Weird ... Karen and I auto crossed our WRX's for quite a while ... Karen's stock ... mine quite tuned and many 100's of runs, and never had an engine problem. Our '06 Legacy Outback on the other hand ... just a freeway daily driver has required two complete engine rebuilds, including last time a new short block ... all under warranty.

Thanks for all the replies. No, as far as I know there isn't a hole in my motor. Apparently they just dropped the oil pan, found bearing material, and concluded new long block, and maybe new turbo. I don't have any pics - I'm told the motor is still in the car.

The reason I'm leaning toward having it done at the dealer is 1) warranty on the new motor afterwards, 2) just in case Subaru actually comes through with some goodwill money, I don't think I can take advantage of that unless it's a dealer repair, 3) at this point I just want my daily driver back asap, I don't have a car. I can't afford to have this thing sit for months while waiting for a cheap and potentially unreliable fix. I don't want to have to go through this a second time.

As far as fighting it... I'll be honest, I used all of my words and all of my reason and rationale, and I just kept getting the straight no in response. Is it really time to lawyer up? I mean, is there even a case in there somewhere, and will I end up ahead after whatever the lawyer fees are? I'm over my head with this one, part of me just wants to put it behind me and chalk it up to a very expensive life lesson.

Ramin Beizaie wrote:Thanks for all the replies. No, as far as I know there isn't a hole in my motor. Apparently they just dropped the oil pan, found bearing material, and concluded new long block, and maybe new turbo. I don't have any pics - I'm told the motor is still in the car.

The reason I'm leaning toward having it done at the dealer is 1) warranty on the new motor afterwards, 2) just in case Subaru actually comes through with some goodwill money, I don't think I can take advantage of that unless it's a dealer repair, 3) at this point I just want my daily driver back asap, I don't have a car. I can't afford to have this thing sit for months while waiting for a cheap and potentially unreliable fix. I don't want to have to go through this a second time.

With no hole you're looking at some bearings, possibly some crank refinishing, and a new oil pump. If you shut it down as soon as it started making noise the rods are probably ok, but you might have to replace one or more of them depending on heat damage. maybe 2k in parts plus labor. Turbo, heads and pistons should be fine but could need some cleaning if your oil filter failed due to the bearing material overload.

i'm not sure i'd waste my time with legal action. It's going to take forever and considering they know you autox you're going to have an uphill battle proving that wasn't the direct cause of the failure.


under no circumstance would I spend 10k on a new motor.

Mako Koiwai wrote:Weird ... Karen and I auto crossed our WRX's for quite a while ... Karen's stock ... mine quite tuned and many 100's of runs, and never had an engine problem. Our '06 Legacy Outback on the other hand ... just a freeway daily driver has required two complete engine rebuilds, including last time a new short block ... all under warranty.

the 2.0l ARE the best subie engines, i can't think of anyone blowing the 2.0l autoxing , the latest 2.5l are junk.

Tom Denham wrote:the latest 2.5l are junk.

I would have to agree based on my experience... Well, it did run great while it ran but sheesh, so fragile. Or maybe, doomed to failure from the start?

Tom D, I notice you are from Long Beach. Do you know of a good Subie shop in the area that could do a solid rebuild? The only good Subie shop I am aware of is Subie Specialties in Monrovia, which is faaaar...

Not worth a lawyer for actually suing or taking to arbitration. But could be worth paying a few hundred for a consultation.

Ramin Beizaie wrote:Tom D, I notice you are from Long Beach. Do you know of a good Subie shop in the area that could do a solid rebuild? The only good Subie shop I am aware of is Subie Specialties in Monrovia, which is faaaar...

The closest subie shop to long beach that i would talk to would be SubieTech they are a hole in the wall shop, but do good work, I want to say the owners name is Mike ,but i am not sure.
Subie specialties is a great shop also.

I understand that is your baby,and i understand you want it fixed right away, but listen to the guys on this forum , they are offering great advice on how to save some heart ache and money. Ask Pete Loney tell you about his experiance with the dealer rebuilding his engine. Email Tom Berry about used engines, he also knows a subie mech.

Do you live in LB.

Ramin, sorry to hear about that. I will suggest that you stop posting about this issue until this is somehow resolved with Subaru. No need to let them know your strategy. You can IM the people with advice directly.

Here is the Consumer Mediation website:
http://www.nmvb.ca.gov/consumer_program ... erview.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Its free, but I have no idea how long the process takes or the fine details of how it works.

I've had decent monthly rentals in the $600 range. If you find a shop they may be able to arrange a discount.

My wife thinks you're screwed. Its the danger of defending the bad guy (dealers) she starts to think like one. I am not so sure. Most likely its a loser. But I'd build your own case for an arbitrator. Research the large failure rate for this motor. Show the adverts for the SCCA membership (even if that program was discontinued). Look for any performance related advertising. Show performance related parts and accessories sold by the dealer. Show the Solo Rulebook section of speeds and course design (pages 28-30 in the rulebook---"Turns should not normally allow speeds in excess of 45 mph in unprepared cars"). What we do is really no different than hot-shoeing up freeway onramps and probably less taxing that spirited canyon driving. Sounds to me like this engine suffers from oiling issues that could just as easily show up on freeway cloverleafs.

Thanks to every one of you for your advice, rest assured I am considering all of it very seriously. Tom D., I live in Signal Hill. I know about Pete's rebuild. In fact this is one main reason I'm afraid of "settling" for a rebuild. Who's to say I go through all that, save a couple grand as opposed to a new/reman longblock, and then boom, here we go again?

less logical, but sometimes more successful approach, is to appeal to the public relations department.

i know on the Mazda community, there were several denied warranties (and these ones had much greater justification for denied service - turbo tweak, fuel / air, race motormounts, etc, etc) that were at least partially honored after pleading with the PR people. i'm sure the underwriters love to deny claim, but sometimes, the appearance of good will amongst car enthusiasts of a marquee is more important to the company, than saving a few grand.

things like "the new subie 2.5 motor is a POS, I didn't do any modification to the motor, and it blew at an auto-x, now subaru is denying claim. BEWARE, your warranty is only good if you drive around like a grandma".. has a way of becoming popular myth which car companies work hard at avoiding.

Ramin Beizaie wrote:Thanks to every one of you for your advice, rest assured I am considering all of it very seriously. Tom D., I live in Signal Hill.

i know that area well, i grew up there and moved when i was 18, i am old now, but back then it was a rally course right out side my front door , tarmac twisties up on the hill , and dirt oil fields every where else, ah the good ole days of misbehaving }:)
And when it rained like now, Oh man did i get in trouble

Tom Denham wrote:

Ramin Beizaie wrote:Thanks to every one of you for your advice, rest assured I am considering all of it very seriously. Tom D., I live in Signal Hill.

i know that area well, i grew up there and moved when i was 18, i am old now, but back then it was a rally course right out side my front door , tarmac twisties up on the hill , and dirt oil fields every where else, ah the good ole days of misbehaving }:)
And when it rained like now, Oh man did i get in trouble

with the popularity of the park on top of the hill, and the abundant people walking / running /walking their dogs, no more shinanigans.. unless you want to be an a-hole

Jeff Shyu wrote:

Tom Denham wrote:

Ramin Beizaie wrote:Thanks to every one of you for your advice, rest assured I am considering all of it very seriously. Tom D., I live in Signal Hill.

i know that area well, i grew up there and moved when i was 18, i am old now, but back then it was a rally course right out side my front door , tarmac twisties up on the hill , and dirt oil fields every where else, ah the good ole days of misbehaving }:)
And when it rained like now, Oh man did i get in trouble

with the popularity of the park on top of the hill, and the abundant people walking / running /walking their dogs, no more shinanigans.. unless you want to be an a-hole

Jeff i am old here I'll do the math 44-18=26 years ago :: The whole city was a my park back then

I'd be curious to know how the warranty is worded regarding "race" related exclusions. An argument can easily be made that with rolling starts, speeds averaging only 30-35 mph, and that autox entails driving around cones in parking lots, that autox hardly qualifies as "racing". I think a reasonable judge just might agree. I'm not sure, but I think a small claims action can be up to $7,500 and probably costs less that $100 to file and have them served. Might be worth a try especially if the wording in the warranty doesn't support the denial or if you can find prior court cases to support you claim. No matter what you decide to do, I roll the dice in small claims court.

George Schilling wrote:I'd be curious to know how the warranty is worded regarding "race" related exclusions. An argument can easily be made that with rolling starts, speeds averaging only 30-35 mph, and that autox entails driving around cones in parking lots, that autox hardly qualifies as "racing". I think a reasonable judge just might agree. I'm not sure, but I think a small claims action can be up to $7,500 and probably costs less that $100 to file and have them served. Might be worth a try especially if the wording in the warranty doesn't support the denial or if you can find prior court cases to support you claim. No matter what you decide to do, I roll the dice in small claims court.

i think "race" comes in whenever there's timing involved. it's not just an auto-x thing, i think they deny warranty based upon the "race" condition for drag racing (street legal drags, do they still have those?), auto-x, and time trials.

i think that's one of the reasons why most car clubs don't run timing equipment at track days.. it's not considered racing if it's not timed..