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So this is the big ST shakeup I've been hearing about.

Michael Smith wrote:So this is the big ST shakeup I've been hearing about.

"The SEB has appointed Jason Rhoades to the STAC" ? ;)

Cool.
So what's the new ST top dog going to be?

Oooooh, 350Z in ESP... that could be fun.

Well, so much for ST cars being street-legal.

Hmmm, I do still have the Escort..... }:)

Steve Lepper wrote:Well, so much for ST cars being street-legal.

this slope feels a bit slippery to me.

The EF civics are already dead going to STS. But give the miatae a diff and the CRXen are dead too and the Civics are a distant third. Maybe fourth behind the Celicas.... Or Fifth behind the integras. Its already been proven that a Civic sees little or no improvement with a diff. A miata.... BIG IMPROVEMENT.

Most current ST/STS have been able to be driven on the street. Maybe our ECU programming was technically in non-compliance, but the cop on the street can't see that. He can see a full-on race cat and impound the car. No thanks. I don't drive mine, but I like being able to. I was even considering getting it smogged so I could the next two months without a trailer.

Rick Brown wrote:

Michael Smith wrote:So this is the big ST shakeup I've been hearing about.

"The SEB has appointed Jason Rhoades to the STAC" ? ;)

Was already on the STAC from '04-'06, then on the SMAC from '07-'10.

Off the SMAC, back on crack with the STAC. Read this thing and submit your thoughts and position.

Steve, how much hp does a Civic pick up over a CARB-legal hi-flow cat with a full-race cat or test pipe? If it's really more than 1-2 hp is it the end of the world to spend 10 minutes swapping it for Nats? Most people spend far more time than that putting on stickers...

If you have a stock flange to work with I guess you could bolt a legal cat in and out. I certainly wouldn't maintain that bottle neck, and now my custom non-CARB legal header will actually help and that isn't swapping out so easily. And then why would anybody spend the money anyway to get crazy stupid chasing Miata's with diffs?

Will Kalman wrote:Hmmm, I do still have the Escort..... }:)

They exclude neons, but not Escort/proteges? Interesting... We should talk. ;)

So these are proposed for 2012? I mean I finally get a 350Z to show up and run in BSP and they want to move him. Sucks.

Steve Ekstrand wrote:If you have a stock flange to work with I guess you could bolt a legal cat in and out. I certainly wouldn't maintain that bottle neck, and now my custom non-CARB legal header will actually help and that isn't swapping out so easily. And then why would anybody spend the money anyway to get crazy stupid chasing Miata's with diffs?

Diffs are not a done deal. Expecting lots of letters from legions of Civic guys out there not in favor. Even seems like some of the Miata guys would prefer to run heads-up with the cars as they are today without the advantage. Of course, there are many who favor the "principle" of a consistent allowance across the category, even though we'll still have class-specific wheel and tire allowances. Then there's the question of whether or not it's right to allow diffs for the "new" ST, targeted at newer FWD cars where the diff install is very hard, where the parts are even available.

Steve Ekstrand wrote:But give the miatae a diff and the CRXen are dead too and the Civics are a distant third.

There was a bit in the "give everybody diffs" option that suggested the Miatas might wind up in STR (among other rearrangements) if everybody got diffs.

Do the Miatas really need diffs more than the front wheel drive cars? I would have expected the Civics to benefit more from limited slip than Miatas.

John Stimson wrote:Do the Miatas really need diffs more than the front wheel drive cars? I would have expected the Civics to benefit more from limited slip than Miatas.

I've never driven a '94-'97 with the limited slip, so I don't know what the difference would feel like. I have driven a STS rules prepped CRX (ST2 did not exist yet) both prior to and after the addition of a Torsen LSD in STX several years ago at the SD Nat tour. The difference in grip was night and day. It was no longer a speed maintenance car... but could power out of any corner no matter how tight it was.

Craig

Arthur Grant wrote:So these are proposed for 2012? I mean I finally get a 350Z to show up and run in BSP and they want to move him. Sucks.

"Unless noted otherwise the effective date for all rule, class, and listing change proposals herein is 1/1/2012"

"- Per the SPAC, the following class change proposals are published for member comment:"

Chris Shenefield couldn't make a diff car any faster without more power back when he was pretty much the God of that car. My guess is that if the grip was night and day, then the car wasn't setup well to begin with or had a big FSB.

But yeah... If Miata's go to STR, then hell yes, give us diffs! Although, its possible that the CRXen with a shorter wheelbase might benefit more... Not many data points to work with there.

Craig's point is escaping you Steve. If the Civics / CRXs benefit from diffs, why is there a need to threaten moving Miatas to STR just because they have a diff?

Think about the proposal carefully. Discuss it. Really get into the details. Then write in. The STAC and SEB are listening.

Mike

Thanks to ProParts USA ;) , I don't get wheelspin, why do I need an LSD?

I really do think the CRX should be faster than the Civic, close but ultimately faster. I'm bummed about the move, but I guess from the outside it makes the most sense.

Is a disk brake conversion a bolt-on affair for an EF Civic? If so, is it a benefit?

Mike Simanyi wrote:Craig's point is escaping you Steve. If the Civics / CRXs benefit from diffs, why is there a need to threaten moving Miatas to STR just because they have a diff?

Think about the proposal carefully. Discuss it. Really get into the details. Then write in. The STAC and SEB are listening.

Mike

No Mike, you and Craig missed my point. The very top people in Civics have experimented with Diffs with an eye towards winning STX. The ultimate decision was a fail. If the car is set up properly the speed maintenance setup was faster than point and shoot in a FWD car with no power. I trust the National champions who have experimented and shared the data with me. I doubt local guys who've played at the local level. If you haven't noticed, not all Civics are created equal. I may not be the best example not being an alien driver, but there are distinct levels of prep and potential within the ST ranks.

I didn't buy an STS miata specifically because it didn't have a diff and wasn't as much fun to drive without one. With the ST civic I didn't care.

In the new STS, ignoring a change in diffs, why would you run a Civic, when you could lose 200lbs and some wheelbase and run the CRX? Sure the times are similar. The CRX have never been pushed to the level of detail, prep, setup, and testing that the Civics have. Mike King was one of the only highly prepped CRX and that car didn't have the level of flogging any top civic has. When Tim Herren was fast his car was a joke compared to mine in prep, and my car and the rest of the top civics have developed tons since then. Competition makes things better. The top guys who stay will be switching to CRXen and they will get faster. There is a rap on ST as being lemmings with an easy, cheap, known setup that any idiot can drive. Just because its the same damn familiar hatch doesn't mean its any thing simple, cheap, easy, or the same.

We've planned since we first heard of the ST shake-up to bail on the civic. Those plans haven't changed. A good number of people I know in the class have been looking for the "what's next" option. The SEB is taking a thoroughly successful class and a cool little car and junking it because some whiny losers in STX got pissy about being beat (sorry KJ).

Steve Ekstrand wrote:

Mike Simanyi wrote:Craig's point is escaping you Steve. If the Civics / CRXs benefit from diffs, why is there a need to threaten moving Miatas to STR just because they have a diff?

Think about the proposal carefully. Discuss it. Really get into the details. Then write in. The STAC and SEB are listening.

Mike

We've planned since we first heard of the ST shake-up to bail on the civic. Those plans haven't changed. A good number of people I know in the class have been looking for the "what's next" option. The SEB is taking a thoroughly successful class and a cool little car and junking it because some whiny losers in STX got pissy about being beat (sorry KJ).

Hey Steve, I've got no horse in this race.. but to me entirely on the outside it looks like they are just trying to safeguard ST for the future. 89 Civics are just getting more and more rare and no one seems to be able to find an unmolested 240 to use in ST, so they need to move the class forward. From outside, that's what it looks like they are trying to do, kinda like when they made the 25year old stock exclusion. At this point they need to find a way to make sure some moderately modern cars are reasonably competitive.

It's unfortunate that in doing so they are pushing aside a car that is extremely cost effective to race, but they need to do it at some point. Hopefully it will just equilize the class.

Aaron Goldsmith wrote:
Hey Steve, I've got no horse in this race.. but to me entirely on the outside it looks like they are just trying to safeguard ST for the future. 89 Civics are just getting more and more rare and no one seems to be able to find an unmolested 240 to use in ST, so they need to move the class forward. From outside, that's what it looks like they are trying to do, kinda like when they made the 25year old stock exclusion. At this point they need to find a way to make sure some moderately modern cars are reasonably competitive.

It's unfortunate that in doing so they are pushing aside a car that is extremely cost effective to race, but they need to do it at some point. Hopefully it will just equilize the class.

The argument about older cars being hard to find can still be applied to an STS field of NA Miatas and CRXs. There are so many ST prepped Civics running around the country, many times more than the number of STS CRXs.

So, who out there is a fabricator and wants to help me build a GP car?

Sebastian Rios wrote:

Aaron Goldsmith wrote:
Hey Steve, I've got no horse in this race.. but to me entirely on the outside it looks like they are just trying to safeguard ST for the future. 89 Civics are just getting more and more rare and no one seems to be able to find an unmolested 240 to use in ST, so they need to move the class forward. From outside, that's what it looks like they are trying to do, kinda like when they made the 25year old stock exclusion. At this point they need to find a way to make sure some moderately modern cars are reasonably competitive.

It's unfortunate that in doing so they are pushing aside a car that is extremely cost effective to race, but they need to do it at some point. Hopefully it will just equilize the class.

The argument about older cars being hard to find can still be applied to an STS field of NA Miatas and CRXs. There are so many ST prepped Civics running around the country, many times more than the number of STS CRXs.

So, who out there is a fabricator and wants to help me build a GP car?

I am, just haven't picked up a weldor in a couple of years (been getting a pay check as a fab/weldor), but i still build my own stuff in my antiquated garage, though , here's what we need. a Tig welder, a break, a band saw, drill press, 5 ton press,plasma cutter, tubing bender,bench grinder,etc!!!

Give me credit card number and i will get on it!!!!!!!!!!!

Steve Ekstrand wrote:They exclude neons, but not Escort/proteges?

Escort/protege never won, so flys under the radar.

First couple years of a new class are always the most entertaining (for those not spending the $$). I look forward to seeing the multiude of cars emerging.

Jay W