Cal Club Autocross Forums

Hi everyone.

I'm your Region Chair and I'm also the owner of the white M3 that had a "coolant event" on Saturday afternoon.

I'm writing to remind people what red flags are for. They're to stop cars for safety purposes. Ultimately the safety at heart is human - we don't want anyone injured in the least at our events.

That can be a matter of safety for a course worker, safety for car occupants, safety for the cars or general safety for the event.

When the coolant cloud started on the car, nobody threw a red flag. When it continued, nobody threw a red flag. I wasn't in the car but I was told by one of the occupants "So that's why the course workers were running away..."

The car should have been stopped with a red flag. When it finally crossed the finish line and the occupants realized there was a problem, they pulled over. We were already scrambling for a fire extinguisher in case the worst happened.

I don't run much coolant - just enough to reduce some of the electrolysis in an engine with aluminum and iron components - but most coolant is very slick. For the safety of following cars, the M3 should have been pulled off course to minimize having later cars run on a slick course, which could have jeopardized car occupants and course workers alike.

Some people already know what happened but for the rest of you who are curious, a freeze plug came out of the block, evacuating all the coolant in the system. Sorry for the hassle. That's a development I simply couldn't have foreseen. Until it happened Saturday I had never heard of this type of failure.

As a small side note, I understand that distilled water in your cooling system - along with a bottle or two of Water Wetter - is supposed to be as effective as antifreeze at preventing electrolysis and lubricating your water pump bearing. I'll be going that route in the future, being sure to use antifreeze only if I'm traveling to sub-freezing temperatures. The benefit is Water Wetter doesn't create a slick surface for others to drive on if the cooling system experiences a breach. Food for thought, for everyone who does track events and more.

Another option might be NPG from Evans Cooling. I don't know much about it, but Steve O'Blenes mentioned it to me this weekend.

Mike

Mike Simanyi wrote: Another option might be NPG from Evans Cooling. I don't know much about it, but Steve O'Blenes mentioned it to me this weekend.
Mike

Mike, not sure what you're after with NPG but I believe it's straight propylene glycol. Dunno, but I'd expect it to be as slippery to drive on as conventional coolant. Another issue: water is one of the most efficient coolants in existence in terms of BTU per degree-lb (or something like that). All chemical coolants are much less efficient at actual heat transfer, which after-all is the objective. I'm sure there are pluses such as corrosion control and ultra high boiling point. Don't know if they outweigh the negatives.

Mike Simanyi wrote: Some people already know what happened but for the rest of you who are curious, a freeze plug came out of the block, evacuating all the coolant in the system. Sorry for the hassle. That's a development I simply couldn't have foreseen. Until it happened Saturday I had never heard of this type of failure.

Mike

Are you sure that car is not British?

No expert here, but just some thoughts. Whatever it is in anti freeze that helps combat electrolysis I don't know. But basically isn't it the PH of the solution? You want the PH to be where none of the metals involved become "batteries".

If that is the case you should be able to adjust the PH with simple pool chemicals, what say Steve A, or any race engineer guys?

I happy to hear it was a fairly minor problem Mike. Hopefully the damage was limited to that issue.

I certainly concur with what you wrote Mike. Folks, we need to be thinking out there. This includes advising others who are not as experienced as you may be. Also, let's make sure all the red flags are in someone's hands and not lying on the ground.

on the topic of corner workers and red flag. I witnessed a particularly scary moment during the first run group on Sunday.

this lady (pictured below) in the blue mini was going through the 2nd "leg" of the runway on the right side of the course, where there's a left-right sequence. well, she got lost there, and instead of a right, she went left, and I guess the gate on the left looked like a natural continuation of the course. I knew something was wrong the second I saw her looking left instead of right (I had been shooting that sequence), and immediately put down the camera to watch where she was going.

My spotter and I were waving and shouting at the corner workers as she's coming back through the corners, but the corner workers were looking back toward the start, where the next-up cars were coming from, and never saw her until she crossed in front of them. She and the next car on course came to a stop on opposite sides of the same corner - which is definitely way too close.

I would suggest a reenforcement of "look up AND DOWN the corner you're working"..

Jeff Shyu wrote:on the topic of corner workers and red flag. I witnessed a particularly scary moment during the first run group on Sunday.

Yeah, I "witnessed" that too. It was a particularly blind corner we stopped on.

Jay W

i was working on that corner when this happened. I was looking at the car that was coming in the RIGHT DIRECTION, then just glanced back on the next corner. A blue mini was raging through the corners as if that was the right direction lol.. i never though this could happen before.
As they got closer and closer, i'm like 'OH SH*T!someone needs to stop' then somewhat blanked out in surprise :mrt:
i did try shouting at them to stop, though.
I think we need more red flags out in the course cause i couldn't find one for myself..or the other course workers.
That car should've been stopped long before it got to my corner though.

Kris Cho wrote: I think we need more red flags out in the course cause i couldn't find one for myself..or the other course workers.

We have a lot of red flags. If a worker can't find them on course, they should have the radio guy call in. Actually, corner radio should be checking these things when they start their job. Is nobody paying attention at the safety meetings??

moved my post to fast track

It should be noted this is only Kris's 3rd event. As for radio, I know the first two times I had the assignment I had little or no clue about how the routine went, loging cars and all, and the crew that was out there, was most interested in getting in. The proceedures weren't covered in any meeting. I am sure with the wind blocking sound and cold and rain encouraging people to wear hoods that limit peripheral vision we had plenty of opportunity to have incidents sneak up on us.

I don't know who was working what position, so hopefully I'm not embarrassing anyone. it's all for safety.

The corner worker who was working the inside of that corner (where the cars almost met up) was probably doing the right thing, by keeping an eye on the newly released car that was quickly approaching his/her corner. However, the person who was positioned on the side of the track (by the grass, between the 2 parallel legs of the runway) really should have been scanning left and right a bit more often.

as a corner worker out there, you're not just protecting the drivers from each other, you're also protecting the other corner workers

Jeff Shyu wrote:I don't know who was working what position, so hopefully I'm not embarrassing anyone. it's all for safety.

The corner worker who was working the inside of that corner (where the cars almost met up) was probably doing the right thing, by keeping an eye on the newly released car that was quickly approaching his/her corner. However, the person who was positioned on the side of the track (by the grass, between the 2 parallel legs of the runway) really should have been scanning left and right a bit more often.

as a corner worker out there, you're not just protecting the drivers from each other, you're also protecting the other corner workers

WERD.

It would've been an amazing experience to watch cars crash from few feet away from me }:) glad it didn't happen though

Watching that event unfold from the distance of the grid was a very helpless feeling.

With the wind this weekend, it made it especially difficult to get the attention of other workers in my area. That got me thinking... what about using whistles to get each other's attention? A whistle's sound travels much better than a voice, and once you had a worker's attention you can use hand signals or frantic pointing to realy your message.

Maybe something like a teacher uses on the playground. As much as I like you all, I'm not keen on sharing your spit, so I wonder if there's a cheap "disposable" model out there we can get in quantity for a few cents a piece?

Just a thought.

Steve Lepper wrote:Watching that event unfold from the distance of the grid was a very helpless feeling.

With the wind this weekend, it made it especially difficult to get the attention of other workers in my area. That got me thinking... what about using whistles to get each other's attention? A whistle's sound travels much better than a voice, and once you had a worker's attention you can use hand signals or frantic pointing to realy your message.

Maybe something like a teacher uses on the playground. As much as I like you all, I'm not keen on sharing your spit, so I wonder if there's a cheap "disposable" model out there we can get in quantity for a few cents a piece?

Just a thought.

there available out their cheap. Coast Guard recommends them for attachment on PFD's. You can pick them up at most sporting goods stores.

Road racing corner workers use whistles all the time. Grid and Tech also use them because they can be heard inside running race cars. I even had my whistle at Saturday's practice and spent time irritating Mike with it. Probably a good idea for workers on a Solo2 course, but there will be five posts after this saying why its such a bad idea.

Jason Isley BS RX8 wrote: Are you sure that car is not British?

Steve Lepper wrote:Watching that event unfold from the distance of the grid was a very helpless feeling.

With the wind this weekend, it made it especially difficult to get the attention of other workers in my area. That got me thinking... what about using whistles to get each other's attention? A whistle's sound travels much better than a voice, and once you had a worker's attention you can use hand signals or frantic pointing to realy your message.

Maybe something like a teacher uses on the playground. As much as I like you all, I'm not keen on sharing your spit, so I wonder if there's a cheap "disposable" model out there we can get in quantity for a few cents a piece?

Just a thought.

Sounds like an AWESOME idea!!! Please let's do this!

Mike Simanyi wrote:

Jason Isley BS RX8 wrote: Are you sure that car is not British?

It may breakdown, but its fast. Can't be British.

Mike: did any course workers or spectators comment on how the "coolant cloud" looked? Possibly it didn't look "that" bad from the corner workers point-of-view? i.e. some of the Civics & other cars spit clouds of smokes accelerating out of turns; & if the course was still wet @ that point, maybe that made some of the coolant spill not as noticeable.

Glad everything seems okay, though.

John Coffey wrote:Road racing corner workers use whistles all the time. Grid and Tech also use them because they can be heard inside running race cars. I even had my whistle at Saturday's practice and spent time irritating Mike with it. Probably a good idea for workers on a Solo2 course, but there will be five posts after this saying why its such a bad idea.

I think it's a great idea. However, with workers who weren't paying attention and/or using the red flags correctly in the first place, would it do more good than harm giving them yet another tool they may not use correctly?

I think the same issues with noob course workers exist in all the regions, I had some new workers at the Sunday SDR event, while I ran radio, & I had to scream out to them every time a cone was hit, as they stood there admiring the Stadium or something.

Note: Boy friend/girlfriend couples should be split as far apart as possible. :ibrightdea:

Years ago I suggested that a standard one page handout on how to work the course could easily be written, a supply kept on hand, and passed out by the work assignment person for each run group to anyone he/she did not recognize.

Nothing ever got done, nor do I expect it will again.

Hoping that everyone is paying attention at the safety/driver meeting (or that everyone is even there) is wishful thinking.

At least with a handout, you have one more chance that a few noobs will read it and learn something & maybe avoid a delay of event, accident, or worse.

Bob Pl wrote:I think the same issues with noob course workers exist in all the regions, I had some new workers at the Sunday SDR event, while I ran radio, & I had to scream out to them every time a cone was hit, as they stood there admiring the Stadium or something.

Note: Boy friend/girlfriend couples should be split as far apart as possible. :ibrightdea:

Years ago I suggested that a standard one page handout on how to work the course could easily be written, a supply kept on hand, and passed out by the work assignment person for each run group to anyone he/she did not recognize.

Nothing ever got done, nor do I expect it will again.

Hoping that everyone is paying attention at the safety/driver meeting (or that everyone is even there) is wishful thinking.

At least with a handout, you have one more chance that a few noobs will read it and learn something & maybe avoid a delay of event, accident, or worse.

Write it and email it to me. I'll print some out.

Aaron Goldsmith wrote:

Bob Pl wrote:I think the same issues with noob course workers exist in all the regions, I had some new workers at the Sunday SDR event, while I ran radio, & I had to scream out to them every time a cone was hit, as they stood there admiring the Stadium or something.

Note: Boy friend/girlfriend couples should be split as far apart as possible. :ibrightdea:

Years ago I suggested that a standard one page handout on how to work the course could easily be written, a supply kept on hand, and passed out by the work assignment person for each run group to anyone he/she did not recognize.

Nothing ever got done, nor do I expect it will again.

Hoping that everyone is paying attention at the safety/driver meeting (or that everyone is even there) is wishful thinking.

At least with a handout, you have one more chance that a few noobs will read it and learn something & maybe avoid a delay of event, accident, or worse.

Write it and email it to me. I'll print some out.

I am sending an email with a word doc attached. It's a working draft, I encourage a safety steward and/or old pro to add/edit/whatever. Keep it one page & noobs might read it.

Update, forum email function does not seem to allow attachments, so I pasted it into the box. If you want a Word doc attachment, send me another email addy.

There is a simple explanation (with pictures) on the back of many of the clipboards. The idea was that the radio person (assumed to be experienced) will be teamed with his workers and share this before heading out or when all are at the station so he knows that his team has some idea what is expected. We do generally have experienced people on the radio and I think we need to keep reinforcing that their job includes being responsible for their workers and their training. Having the novice meeting is a good thing, but reinforcing what they are told there by the radio person would be good, too.

Rick Brown wrote:There is a simple explanation (with pictures) on the back of many of the clipboards. The idea was that the radio person (assumed to be experienced) will be teamed with his workers and share this before heading out or when all are at the station so he knows that his team has some idea what is expected. We do generally have experienced people on the radio and I think we need to keep reinforcing that their job includes being responsible for their workers and their training. Having the novice meeting is a good thing, but reinforcing what they are told there by the radio person would be good, too.

There is often not enough time to go through everything that needs to be gone over before cars start getting sent. IMO, first timers need to pulled aside and given a class of sorts on the basics of working course, and then checked off on a list to ensure that they all are given instruction before working.

It seems almost every time I work course/radio, I have at least one person in my section that has never worked course, and they have been told next to nothing before being sent out. I ask them if they know what they are supposed to do, and usually get a blank stare. I do my best to show them the ropes before the cars start coming (and even while the cars are coming when I can), but it's difficult to describe the intricacies of working course while the course is hot.

This is just something I've noticed over the last year an a half since I started autoXing with CSCC, and I wanted to voice my opinion.

/soapbox