F125 is not in CPM or did I miss ---

[Don Salyers]

F125 has never been in CPM, as far back as I could find. I also checked the minutes for the past Sept, Oct, Nov and Jan and there was no mention. The event registration had F125 in run group 5 not 4 with us. Did Rick decide to change the classes.

I thought for sure Christine would catch it and pull them out and put them in the correct class but that did not happen either, whats up?

Don

[Rick Brown]

F125 has never been in CPM, as far back as I could find. I also checked the minutes for the past Sept, Oct, Nov and Jan and there was no mention. The event registration had F125 in run group 5 not 4 with us. Did Rick decide to change the classes.

I thought for sure Christine would catch it and pull them out and put them in the correct class but that did not happen either, whats up?

Don

SCCA classes F125 as a Modified Category class. When we first started and didn't have the numbers we would get put in with other Modified vehicles at ProSolo, precedent set. Eric is running CPM since he will likely be driving Robert's FF at times. Since he and Jon were in CPM I chose to run there, too, since I didn't want to run alone.

[Don Salyers]

SCCA classes F125 as a Modified Category class. When we first started and didn't have the numbers we would get put in with other Modified vehicles at ProSolo, precedent set. Eric is running CPM since he will likely be driving Robert's FF at times. Since he and Jon were in CPM I chose to run there, too, since I didn't want to run alone.

I don't see where SCCA classes F125 as a Modified Catagory Class, they don't include them in section 18 or 19 in the Rule book.
They are not included in R1 or R2 in the ProSolo rules, they do go to B2 along with many other classes including race tire classes.
No precedent has been set!

I know why you did it and in my mind it is not fair to the CPM competitors nor is it fair to the other F125 drivers that now do not have a class.

Also, I don't think that you have the right to unilaterally do it.

Don

[Aaron Goldsmith]

SCCA classes F125 as a Modified Category class. When we first started and didn't have the numbers we would get put in with other Modified vehicles at ProSolo, precedent set. Eric is running CPM since he will likely be driving Robert's FF at times. Since he and Jon were in CPM I chose to run there, too, since I didn't want to run alone.

I don't see where SCCA classes F125 as a Modified Catagory Class, they don't include them in section 18 or 19 in the Rule book.
They are not included in R1 or R2 in the ProSolo rules, they do go to B2 along with many other classes including race tire classes.
No precedent has been set!

I know why you did it and in my mind it is not fair to the CPM competitors nor is it fair to the other F125 drivers that now do not have a class.

Also, I don't think that you have the right to unilaterally do it.

Don

You know.. I don't think it's specified in the supplemental regs what goes into CPM or that CPM even exists as a class. It only seems to be referenced second hand in the when no class exists section.

[Ron Tsumura]

National Solo Rules 2011 edition Appendex B -Bumping Order, Page 236

APPENDIX B - BUMPING ORDER
“Bumping” is not approved for championship events. However, the following
bumping order is recommended for regional events in cases where a
class is to be combined with another class.

"MODIFIED CATEGORY
EM > DM > CM > BM > AM
FM > CM
KART CATEGORY
F125 > BM"

[Rick Brown]

SCCA classes F125 as a Modified Category class. When we first started and didn't have the numbers we would get put in with other Modified vehicles at ProSolo, precedent set. Eric is running CPM since he will likely be driving Robert's FF at times. Since he and Jon were in CPM I chose to run there, too, since I didn't want to run alone.

I don't see where SCCA classes F125 as a Modified Catagory Class, they don't include them in section 18 or 19 in the Rule book.
They are not included in R1 or R2 in the ProSolo rules, they do go to B2 along with many other classes including race tire classes.
No precedent has been set!

I know why you did it and in my mind it is not fair to the CPM competitors nor is it fair to the other F125 drivers that now do not have a class.

Also, I don't think that you have the right to unilaterally do it.

Don

As far as classification, all I was going on was how F125 had been treated in the past at National events, may not be true now.

Assuming we were allowed in, why is it unfair? We shouldn't dominate by any means. We switched to rain tires, did any other CPM cars do that? I did my first run on slicks and had no grip so I switched, the rains made a huge difference. KJ didn't run. On Saturday, paxing our best times, he was ahead by a couple of seconds.

[Don Salyers]

There is no mention at all of CPM in the suppplemental rules, that I could find.

Yes Ron, there is a Bump order for cars that don't make a class. But they did make a class and yes they would have been bumped into BM if there were any BM cars.

Ron, didn't you win the jacket for F125 last year? Not to say that anyone will compete in karts the remainder or the year, but it they do what then?

Rick, it isn't a question of the competition being fair (given the infallibility of the PAX-- }:), it was the act of doing what you did that is not fair.

My throttle broke on my second run could I have used a ST car with their tires and PAX and run my last run. Changing tires? Hell no, none of us changed tires it takes alot longer to change car tires than kart tires!

Don

[Ron Tsumura]

I did not mean to take any sides since I don't know the answer.
Just thought I would put some info out since it is not discussed anywhere.

Lets just say I run my 1973 Firebird in FS one event than SK1FS in another, than Hist2 the next, then CP, ESP, and then STU...

It would be my choice where I entered it if it was legal in any of those classes.

Since CPMod is not defined anywhere, F125 might be legal there too?

[Earl Merz]

If F125 competitors were running in CPM shouldn't they have ran in the same run group as CPM? if not, aren't they supposed to get the other competitors and event masters approval for early/late runs?

[John Fendel]

Don said:

There is no mention at all of CPM in the suppplemental rules, that I could find.

Section 7.3.2. d. says: Prepared and Modified (Prep/Mod) may still be combined when a class does not exist as per 7.2 (this says minimum 2 drivers to have a class), with times adjusted in accordance with the PAX index as listed in Appendix C.

This rule probably should make reference within it to the class designation CPM since that is how we are identifying it.

The definition makes no reference to F125 and I doubt that F125 was considered when the class was created. But, this a regional only combination class for CSCC so we can set whatever rules we want for it. Make a proposal to add F125 to the mix in 7.3.2.d. and submit it to the board for consideration and vote by the club reps. Someone needs to step up and do this if there is enough interest.

[Steve Ekstrand]

If F125 competitors were running in CPM shouldn't they have ran in the same run group as CPM? if not, aren't they supposed to get the other competitors and event masters approval for early/late runs?

The F125rs that ran in CPM ran with CPM in the fourth heat.

[Earl Merz]

If F125 competitors were running in CPM shouldn't they have ran in the same run group as CPM? if not, aren't they supposed to get the other competitors and event masters approval for early/late runs?

The F125rs that ran in CPM ran with CPM in the fourth heat.

Then I miss read Dons post. Thought he said F125 ran in 5th not 4th run group

[Don Salyers]

Earl, I said the registration was for the 5th group, indicating that there was no intent before hand of any combination of what I thought were 2 distinct classes.....

Don

[Patrick Mc Bride]

CPM is a local class, that from memory, was made to facilitate prep and mod drivers that did not have more than one driver in their class. Somehow along the way, all prep and mod drivers got lumped in together, yet rules say that two same category drivers make a class. With all due respect, a F125 or any kart does not fit the present rules for prep or mod. For example, an A mod or B mod car must have all four wheels sprung from chassis as per GCR for 2011.

[Don Salyers]

Don said:

There is no mention at all of CPM in the suppplemental rules, that I could find.

Section 7.3.2. d. says: Prepared and Modified (Prep/Mod) may still be combined when a class does not exist as per 7.2 (this says minimum 2 drivers to have a class), with times adjusted in accordance with the PAX index as listed in Appendix C.

This rule probably should make reference within it to the class designation CPM since that is how we are identifying it.

The definition makes no reference to F125 and I doubt that F125 was considered when the class was created. But, this a regional only combination class for CSCC so we can set whatever rules we want for it. Make a proposal to add F125 to the mix in 7.3.2.d. and submit it to the board for consideration and vote by the club reps. Someone needs to step up and do this if there is enough interest.

I did the search on CPM and missed the rule, John, but the rule clearly states what makes up the combined Prepared and Modified class......

Also, it looks like a proposal would have to be made to change the existing rules and that would not take effect until 2012.

[Eric Clements]

By the supps there is no CPM class. According to the supps the two GP drivers should be reclassed to GP, the two EP drivers are stuck in EP and the three F125 drivers have to go back to playing with themselves.

OR, we could all unbunch our panties and play nice together. I kinda think it's funny that Rick is getting blamed for "doing what he did" whatever that was. It was my plan to run CPM (not realizing It wasn't a class) so I could run the Formula Ford or the kart and maintain points in a well subscribed class. Our region has one CMod car and F125 isn't looking like it's going to be as strong as it was (no Ron so far this year Rick skipped an early event, Jon might get into a college...)

F125 started out as an experiment and was just listed in an appendix. Then it became a "real" class and was put into the modified category (check your 2004 rulebook, section 18.6) later, due to the success of f125, it was given it own section of the rulebook.

Looks like we can quash competition and send all two + car classes back to their base class or we can emergency action CPM into existence and all have fun together!

Amod isn't a GCR class.

[Steve Ekstrand]

If F125 competitors were running in CPM shouldn't they have ran in the same run group as CPM? if not, aren't they supposed to get the other competitors and event masters approval for early/late runs?

The F125rs that ran in CPM ran with CPM in the fourth heat.

Then I miss read Dons post. Thought he said F125 ran in 5th not 4th run group

Yes. And yes.

F125 was listed in the 5th heat. Those entered in CPM ran in the 4th heat.

[KJ Christopher]

Section 7.3.2. d. says: Prepared and Modified (Prep/Mod) may still be combined when a class does not exist as per 7.2 (this says minimum 2 drivers to have a class), with times adjusted in accordance with the PAX index as listed in Appendix C.

So, if I'm reading this right, the only time I'll have someone to run with (in actual CPM) is when someone's co-driver doesn't show up? Sounds like another area where the supps haven't kept up with common practice.

[Don Salyers]

By the supps there is no CPM class. According to the supps the two GP drivers should be reclassed to GP, the two EP drivers are stuck in EP and the three F125 drivers have to go back to playing with themselves.

OR, we could all unbunch our panties and play nice together. I kinda think it's funny that Rick is getting blamed for "doing what he did" whatever that was. It was my plan to run CPM (not realizing It wasn't a class) so I could run the Formula Ford or the kart and maintain points in a well subscribed class. Our region has one CMod car and F125 isn't looking like it's going to be as strong as it was (no Ron so far this year Rick skipped an early event, Jon might get into a college...)

F125 started out as an experiment and was just listed in an appendix. Then it became a "real" class and was put into the modified category (check your 2004 rulebook, section 18.6) later, due to the success of f125, it was given it own section of the rulebook.

Looks like we can quash competition and send all two + car classes back to their base class or we can emergency action CPM into existence and all have fun together!

Amod isn't a GCR class.

Eric, I thought just us old guys dwelt in the past, it isn't 2004.

Why are you persisting with all this crap. Drop this event run the CM car the rest of the year and win the jacket and use the practice days to sort out the F125 if you are going to run it national events. Or, run the kart the rest of the year and win that jacket and test the CM car until Robert is ready to run it.

The class is becoming a very competitive class with the cars that belong in it, any Sunday could produce: 1-Am, 2-CM, 2-4 EP, 3 or 4 GP, 2-CP, and an XP.

No emergency action needed just type in the name CPM. Oh, and by the way, your panties maybe creeping up a bit but my tighty-whites are doing just fine.

Don

[Mark DeShon]

I'm going to offer a couple opinions as someone who admittedly doesn't keep up with the rulebook worth a damn. I noticed the same thing, and as someone who used to race CPM(and plans to again next year) I find it a bit unfair. The idea behind a prepared or modified car is exactly that... to prepare and modify a stock bodied car, or build one up from scratch to be competitive within a certain set of guidelines. F125 owners don't have that hurtle to overcome. They don't have to put forth the time, money, and effort required to prep a competitive car. They can go out and buy a kart which is 90% there, which, from the factory had nothing on it that wasn't needed to go, stop and turn very well. What's more, they don't seem to fall within those same guidelines. The spirit of the class is very different which results in a very different competitive atmosphere. I'm guessing this is why they were given their own class to begin with. Not a legal argument as much as my opinion.
It also seems weird to combine with the prep/mod cars based on bump class, especially when there was a valid F125 class. I would think if there wasn't an F125 class that they should be combined by that classification, not bumped, then combined as a B-mod car. As to where that would put them, though, I don't know. Don't look to me for the answer. Just my $.02. You can start writing your letters now. }:)
Mark D.

[Ron Tsumura]

All very good points!

Seems to me that CPM is the Rodney Dangerfield Class, that is, come see me when you have no class.

Since there are no rules for this class yet I think somebody needs to propose some. Till then what?

I don't anticipate F125 being a class this year. That would leave Rick a man with no class.

As Mr. King once said, "can't we all just get along?"

[Don Salyers]

All very good points!

Seems to me that CPM is the Rodney Dangerfield Class, that is, come see me when you have no class.

Since there are no rules for this class yet I think somebody needs to propose some. Till then what?

I don't anticipate F125 being a class this year. That would leave Rick a man with no class.

As Mr. King once said, "can't we all just get along?"

Ron, you seem to have missed the point----There is a class, clearly defined in 7.2.3 d.

Rick will not be the first nor will he be the last to not have a class. Although, I will agree F125 is rather unique in that they have nowhere to go. But, if you take a car out of a class to compete in another class most of the time you are not very competitive anyway (written by the FS guy that would have to go to ESP, or where ? that got a co-driver, thanks Bob).

And, no we can't "just get along" if we start changing or making rules after 3 events to satisfy one person (either Eric for points or Rick for some "future maybe"). Change the rule by the rules----like they did for Historic 2.

Don

[Eric Clements]

The idea behind a prepared or modified car is exactly that... to prepare and modify a stock bodied car, or build one up from scratch to be competitive within a certain set of guidelines.

For prepared yes. For modified no. Many of the mod classes are based on purpose built road racing cars, BM (Formula atlantics, sports racers) CM, (formula fords, sports 2000) and FM (formula vee, f500)

Don, what do you feel is bad/unfair about karts in CPM?

[Don Salyers]

The idea behind a prepared or modified car is exactly that... to prepare and modify a stock bodied car, or build one up from scratch to be competitive within a certain set of guidelines.

For prepared yes. For modified no. Many of the mod classes are based on purpose built road racing cars, BM (Formula atlantics, sports racers) CM, (formula fords, sports 2000) and FM (formula vee, f500)

Don, what do you feel is bad/unfair about karts in CPM?

Eric,they are not in the class by the rules! If you think it is fair then why don't you make that proposal to who-ever and ask for a rule change for next year. Or am I missing the point or the process.

If I were in your shoes and you in mine this would never have gotten this far in the first place. If I had a kart and I went to Rick and asked him to score me as a CPM, for the reason you did, he would have told me to get lost after telling me that I was trying to gain an advantage over the other CPM's or you already have a class of 3 or the computer won't allow it or I don't have the time or go ask all the other competitors if it is OK. But, it would never have happened.

Yes, Sunday was unfair, the ability in a local event to change the tires for every run is a kart advantage. Tom sure couldn't, Irish and Renee sure couldn't, I might be able to if I had an orange whip or some new orange race shoes for QV.

Don

[Patrick Mc Bride]

Eric this is what is bad/unfair about karts in CPM.Modified Class A (AM).Cars with a minimum weight of 900lbs with driver and a minimum72-inch wheelbase,plus Formula SAE as specified in Section 18.5 .GCR-compliant Formula S and GCR-compliant ASR vehicies may compete in this class.Class (BM) All Formula Cars or Sports Racers compliant onder the current year GCR. Page 35 3.3 VEHICLE SAFETY.3.3.2 Roll Bars are required in all (AM/BM/CM/FM/) and all open (DM/EM and Prepared cars).2011 SCCA National Solo Roles.