Cal Club Autocross Forums

Got a photo enforcement ticket in Oceanside., Failure to stop at red light.

It was very, very close to a California stop. They provided 4 pictures and the video.

The picture was taken prior to me making the stop just before the first strip in the cross walk. I then stopped just after the first line in the cross walk, although very briefly. This is clear in the video they provide where you can see the flash of the camera just before I hit the cross walk line then you see me quickly stop just after the first line then continue. The next picture that they take is of me with an elapsed time of 1.62 seconds making the turn and accelerating. Both frame grabs show me at 15 mph.

Do I have a chance of fighting this?

I've never dealt with a red light camera ticket, but questions about whether this is enforceable or not has led many jurisdictions to discontinue the program. If I were you I'd do the research and fight it.

Just use Mr. Ticket in San Diego, $99 (when my wife used it) Ticket dismissed.

Yes it is. I had the exact same red light ticket last year in Garden Grove (Orange County). I filed for a trial by written declaration and presented evidence that red light cameras were being illegally operated in the state of CA, via an on-going class action lawsuit against the manufacturer and operator of the red light cameras. Also included was a memo to city of Garden Grove by the D.O.T. regarding yellow light timing as well as the increase of the speed limit on that stretch of boulevard which is conveniently littered with red light cameras.

In short, the evidence I presented basically stated that Valley View Blvd was a speed trap for red light cameras. Traveling at the increased speed limit of 45 mph, combined with the short 1.5 second yellow light interval (outlined in the DOT memo to the city), no car could safely stop in time to avoid being photographed by a red light camera. Not to mention the fact that according to law, a private corporation cannot be contracted to operate these cameras on behalf of the state. They are supposed to be operated federally, which they are 100% not, thus making them illegal. In the end my case was "Dismissed" and my bail amount of $480 was returned to me. BTW, I have my Lily to thank for all of this information, she had beaten a similar ticket the year before.

Or, you could just ignore it. These red light tickets are not reported to the DMV so they cannot effect your insurance or driving record, and since you never signed the ticket nor was it issued to you by a traffic officer who witnessed the infraction, there is no real legal recourse according to Ticketassassin. It just goes in the books as an "Unresolved matter" with the court. But as soon as you respond to it you're on the hook and need to see it through.

Check out Ticketassassin.com

Vince Rinner wrote:This is clear in the video they provide where you can see the flash of the camera just before I hit the cross walk line then you see me quickly stop just after the first line then continue.[/b] The next picture that they take is of me with an elapsed time of 1.62 seconds making the turn and accelerating. Both frame grabs show me at 15 mph.

Do I have a chance of fighting this?

Two issues I see here.

The 1.62 seconds between frames, and 15mph recording in each frame, don't correspond with your description of events. Both can't be correct. You would have traveled much father at that speed, more likely, most the way through the right turn.

On the other hand, it may be moot, if the video shows you stopping after the line. Based upon even your own statement above, you failed to stop at the limit line, and did technically run the light (stopsign etc.), even if you did not proceed all the way through. I lost this fight 4-5 years ago in Burbank. Judge agreed with the testifying officer that once you broke the plane of the leading edge of the line, you have not stopped in time, and therefore "ran" the intersection. I attempted to argue for the front tire crossing the line (it had not), the officer argued the leading edge of the bumper, I retried arguing the intent to stop, vs. the intent of running and or lack of attention to stop timely, and the safety aspect. I realize every judge will vary, I lost a strict interpretation of the law, my bumper hung over the edge of the line, period, I lost.

I believe it all comes down to: is fighting worth your time and money. Most can't answer that question till all is said and done. The above turned out not to be so (I lost), but the speed trap in Pasadena a year or so later definitely was (I won).

mute --> moot
plain --> plane
very --> vary

Sorry!

Will Kalman wrote:mute --> moot
plain --> plane
very --> vary

That stuff was all grating on me too.

Kurt Rahn wrote:

Will Kalman wrote:mute --> moot
plain --> plane
very --> vary

That stuff was all grating on me too.

Your too picky. Cut him sum slack.

I know I'm kind of new here, but I'll throw in my two cents just in case. I have successfully defeated a speeding ticket with trial by declaration and in the course of all my research on how to do that I did learn something about contesting red light cameras (assuming you don't want to simply ignore it, which may actually be the best option). Don't sue me, I'm not a lawyer! But maybe I can sum up a few things I've found:

1. File for whatever extensions/delays you reasonably can. The more time passes the better your chances of the officer forgetting about/not caring about your ticket.

2. Do the trial by declaration instead of showing up at court. An officer gets paid overtime to go to court, but the TbD is done during their normal office hours. In theory, the officer is far more likely to show up at court than to fill out his side of the TbD.

3. In your TbD, argue every possible defense... some things I'd cover are..
a. It is required that I am able to face and respond to my accuser and an automatic camera cannot be an accuser. (It cannot testify against you, so the defense argument goes that there isn't any accusation, just hearsay from some officer looking at a photo.)
b. The equipment may have been faulty somehow; insist that the officer must attach the most recent calibration records to his/her TbD
c. If you can prove it, argue that the light timing is off. You can submit a DVD of you timing the light or something.
d. Argue what really happened, as long as the photo doesn't *prove* you did something illegal, this should get the ticket dismissed on it's own (but doesn't, as one friend of mine found out).

4. At the end of your TbD, be sure to put something like "In the case that I am found guilty, I humbly request a Trial De Novo." If you lose the TbD, you can automatically get a new trial but you have to show up physically. Still, I think this is worth doing if for no other reason than that the judge reviewing your case will see that proceeding with the prosecution will cost the state a lot of money.

I actually went online and found a pdf of a TbD that someone else used successfuly. I fixed all the information about location, time and circumstance and made sure the rest of the document wouldn't be perjurious. Happily, I even won my case with it. I spent a lot of time researching how to beat that ticket, but now that I have some of the theory down it will hopefully be easier next time. On the other hand, mine was a speeding ticket issued by an officer so it couldn't be ignored like the camera tickets supposedly can.

(Apparently there's even precedent *in Orange County* that shows that red light camera's photos and video are inadmissible. This guy gives you the case number if you want to reference it in your TbD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfkeHzgq ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

Fight it with TBD. Like Mike said, I've beat 2 of these tickets with TBD.

To add to what Mike has said, the main basis (I think) is that these cameras are being operated illegally. There is a 'cost neutrality' clause in the contract, which makes it illegal, and that is exactly what Redflex is being sued for. LA County has already decided to dismiss all red light camera tickets, and there are rumors that Orange County is planning to follow.