Cal Club Autocross Forums

Changes are changing.

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/ass ... nutes1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If this goes through ... you'll have happy folks and upset folks ... some things never change.

S2000 CR in SS ?!

Why not tell everyone with a "STOCK" car over 30 years old to stay home and put your car on cider blocks. It will save you the effort to keep it smoged and the tires will stay round.

The "new" G stock is a fail. Why not save the ink. Tell H stock to buy a new car.

David Barrish wrote:Why not tell everyone with a car over 30 years old to stay home and put your car on cider blocks. It will save you the effort to keep it smoged and the tires will stay round.

The "new" G stock is a fail. Why not save the ink. Tell H stock to go to STF.

FIXT ;)

David Barrish wrote:The "new" G stock is a fail. Why not save the ink. Tell H stock to buy a new car.

That concern is probably more valid for California courses than nat's. HS did very well against GS in Lincoln. But we air things out a bit more, and GS has some decent powered cars. And getting more.

David Barrish wrote:Why not tell everyone with a "STOCK" car over 30 years old to stay home and put your car on cider blocks. It will save you the effort to keep it smoged and the tires will stay round.

The "new" G stock is a fail. Why not save the ink. Tell H stock to buy a new car.

I'm not sure if this is what you're getting at ("sunset rule", understanding you're likely talking regiona, not national):

(Section 13 of the Solo rule book)
A car will remain eligible for National Tour and National Championship
events through the end of the 30th calendar year after the manufacturer-
designated model year of the car. This eligibility limitation applies
only to the Stock classes.

RE: the GS fail. We were given our orders to get to, at most, 8 classes. The GS/HS merge was the most obvious and has been talked about for years. On the average, the classes are just too close in terms of time on coure. Of course, that is with the Mini running in HS. We discussed what HS, ex the Mini, might look like and couldn't find any evidence it would be widely supported.

As far as the rest of the proposed Appendix A, keep in mind it was done working under the assumption that camber plates were to be allowed. Some of the proposed changes were driven by that, others were more around trying to adjust classing decisions around certain limited (or zero) production cars to reflect things not possible to know at the time of the initial classing and others were purely based on what configurations were believed to be most effected by street tires.

No one is suggesting it is perfect. If you have real world experience that adds to the process, please (please) send your letters!!

So what's with the gutting of D Stock? It seems like a pretty big jump to pull all the RWD cars out of DS and throw them in FS. Also given the performance characteristics of the old REX vs the new one if that goes through it might be time to drop that car into G Street.

1. If a car has been put out to pasture remove it from the list. From the list of "Stock" cars.

Not having "H" stock as a class means my stock, old car will not have an index that I have any hope of running against.

2. Street Prepared numbers could grow overnight, "when" these cars have an index for non-R compound tires. Just like STREET.

FSP on 200 tires. I volunteer my car to run against Doug's to build a data base. Lets see first I need 500/400 springs front/rear with camber plates and a truck to tow the car because it drives like a race car.

I guess I can now tuck the bumpers, making it no longer stock.

Michael Wood wrote:
RE: the GS fail. We were given our orders to get to, at most, 8 classes.
No one is suggesting it is perfect. If you have real world experience that adds to the process, please (please) send your letters!!

So...one of these great ideas was to move 1999-2005 Miatas from CS into ES. A quick check of 2002 Miatas on Craiglist (as examples) indicates 142 horsepower. My 1995 probably is closer to 120hp...maybe. For sake of discussion, that's almost a 20% advantage before turning a key. And this doesn't even address a 10+ year difference, say, in technology, suspensions, etc.

I guess this is the SEB's way of sending NA Miatas out to pasture. Recognizing how much NA Miatas in general have contributed to Solo and an idea that this form of motorsport can indeed be "affordable", it's amazing how the SCCA can turn its back so easily.

Bobby Beyer wrote:So what's with the gutting of D Stock? It seems like a pretty big jump to pull all the RWD cars out of DS and throw them in FS. Also given the performance characteristics of the old REX vs the new one if that goes through it might be time to drop that car into G Street.

Tom Denham wrote:

Bobby Beyer wrote:So what's with the gutting of D Stock? It seems like a pretty big jump to pull all the RWD cars out of DS and throw them in FS. Also given the performance characteristics of the old REX vs the new one if that goes through it might be time to drop that car into G Street.

I thought that might get your attention

David Barrish wrote:1. If a car has been put out to pasture remove it from the list. From the list of "Stock" cars.

Not having "H" stock as a class means my stock, old car will not have an index that I have any hope of running against.

2. Street Prepared numbers could grow overnight, "when" these cars have an index for non-R compound tires. Just like STREET.

FSP on 200 tires. I volunteer my car to run against Doug's to build a data base. Lets see first I need 500/400 springs front/rear with camber plates and a truck to tow the car because it drives like a race car.

I guess I can now tuck the bumpers, making it no longer stock.

Dave if you want you can save the old rule book and use it and the most appropriate PAX #s for the next 20 years for any local class.

Ed Holley wrote: So...one of these great ideas was to move 1999-2005 Miatas from CS into ES. A quick check of 2002 Miatas on Craiglist (as examples) indicates 142 horsepower. My 1995 probably is closer to 120hp...maybe. For sake of discussion, that's almost a 20% advantage before turning a key. And this doesn't even address a 10+ year difference, say, in technology, suspensions, etc.

So... whose great idea was it to put the MS-R/NC and the 1999-2005 Miatas together in CS in the first place? A quick check of the Mazda website indicates 167 horsespower for the NC. My 2004 is 142 according to craigslist. That's a 15% advantage for the NC before turning the key and the NC/NB are within 100 pounds of each other. And that doesn't even address the 15+ year difference in chassis tech.

That doesn't even take into account the RX-8, the M3, BRZ/FRS, Solstice and the 350 and 370Zs in C-Stock - all those cars have more horsepower. At least the NA and NB are on the same chassis. Tell me how the NB belongs in that class vs fighting it out in ES with the NAs? After the RX-8 and Z cars got moved down to CS several years ago, the NBs should have been moved down to ES. It's a long time coming.

I wouldn't be so happy about going to ES just yet, there are a few wild cards that might become overcars.

Also why are there cars on the stock list that aren't stock eligible? I see quite a few cars on the list that are 30+ years old and a few production cars that didn't hit the 1000 model limit(not talking about trunk kit cars).

Bobby Beyer wrote:I wouldn't be so happy about going to ES just yet, there are a few wild cards that might become overcars.

Also why are there cars on the stock list that aren't stock eligible? I see quite a few cars on the list that are 30+ years old and a few production cars that didn't hit the 1000 model limit(not talking about trunk kit cars).

Cars that are 30+ still need a class for local events (even if it is AM). If you cut off classes (like HS) and limit cars from running the local events attendance will drop. In some parts of the country the regions will not have enough participation to run a local event. In some regions they have PAX pro class and PAX regular class and that is about it. SCCA wants to keep people at the local level but not allow the older sports cars at Tour and Nationals. That is why they list all the cars that don't qualify.

Kurt Rahn wrote:

Tom Denham wrote:

Bobby Beyer wrote:So what's with the gutting of D Stock? It seems like a pretty big jump to pull all the RWD cars out of DS and throw them in FS. Also given the performance characteristics of the old REX vs the new one if that goes through it might be time to drop that car into G Street.

I thought that might get your attention

Let's make this happen . Then ...maybe, "The girl from 4e" ," and can i get a hot tub?"

If the NB's finally get a class again by being put in ES, shouldn't the NA's be put in GS ?

Ed Holley wrote:

Michael Wood wrote:
RE: the GS fail. We were given our orders to get to, at most, 8 classes.
No one is suggesting it is perfect. If you have real world experience that adds to the process, please (please) send your letters!!

So...one of these great ideas was to move 1999-2005 Miatas from CS into ES. A quick check of 2002 Miatas on Craiglist (as examples) indicates 142 horsepower. My 1995 probably is closer to 120hp...maybe. For sake of discussion, that's almost a 20% advantage before turning a key. And this doesn't even address a 10+ year difference, say, in technology, suspensions, etc.

I guess this is the SEB's way of sending NA Miatas out to pasture. Recognizing how much NA Miatas in general have contributed to Solo and an idea that this form of motorsport can indeed be "affordable", it's amazing how the SCCA can turn its back so easily.

Sorry, Ed, your argument does not hold water. I can show you plenty of data from my personal scales and dyno testing of NA, NB, and NC Miatas. As an example, here are actual numbers for two equally setup stock Miatas I have measured on the same scales and dynos: the NA (a '96) was 2150 pounds, and the NB (a '99) was only 5 more horsepower and 50 pounds heavier. I can also tell you that the later NB's ('01+) can be even heavier than that.

For a comparison, heavily-optioned my '06, when it was in stock spec (only a catback) weighed 2400 pounds and made 30 MORE rwhp than the 99.

Looking at the numbers, E Stock is the right place for the NB.

Anybody catch the reliant robin in gs? That'll lower your tire budget by a fourth!

You guys are worried about the NB...Did you see that it also includes the Mazdaspeed Miata? I wonder if including the wheel allowance (down to 16"?), you could get a gearing advantage enough to leave it in third everywhere.

Edit: The CR gets lumped with the "trunk kit cars" (slowstice Z0K and MX-5 MS-R) you gotta bury them all...

Sebastian Rios wrote:You guys are worried about the NB...Did you see that it also includes the Mazdaspeed Miata? I wonder if including the wheel allowance (down to 16"?), you could get a gearing advantage enough to leave it in third everywhere.

Edit: The CR gets lumped with the "trunk kit cars" (slowstice Z0K and MX-5 MS-R) you gotta bury them all...

darn... to far down the sp rabbit hole.

Steve Lepper wrote:

Ed Holley wrote:

Michael Wood wrote:
RE: the GS fail. We were given our orders to get to, at most, 8 classes.
No one is suggesting it is perfect. If you have real world experience that adds to the process, please (please) send your letters!!

So...one of these great ideas was to move 1999-2005 Miatas from CS into ES. A quick check of 2002 Miatas on Craiglist (as examples) indicates 142 horsepower. My 1995 probably is closer to 120hp...maybe. For sake of discussion, that's almost a 20% advantage before turning a key. And this doesn't even address a 10+ year difference, say, in technology, suspensions, etc.

I guess this is the SEB's way of sending NA Miatas out to pasture. Recognizing how much NA Miatas in general have contributed to Solo and an idea that this form of motorsport can indeed be "affordable", it's amazing how the SCCA can turn its back so easily.

Sorry, Ed, your argument does not hold water...

WHAT argument. I wasn't trying to argue. I was just citing facts...NBs have more horsepower and more technological advantages than NAs. Being a relative new guy, I was not aware that NBs have been made to wander around in the "desert" of CS to their disadvantage. I understand that this draft proposal makes sense to NB owners. But it WILL kill entries of NAs in E-Street, myself included. Same reason NAs left SK2. But I know THAT's a touchy subject. So...maybe I'll run with Barrish in H1. ;)

Bobby Beyer wrote:I wouldn't be so happy about going to ES just yet, there are a few wild cards that might become overcars.

Tell me something new.

Ed, I run in H2.

The 1986 to 1995 cars will be H3.

I'm not sure I see the argument when Ed would be 6 seconds behind Jerry Jenkins or Brian Johns in their NA's. }:)