Cal Club Autocross Forums

There are several inexpensive drones available on the market now, and I believe we've even seen drone footage at one of our own events.

As cool as it was to see that, the SCCA now has an official position and it effectively means we can't have drones at events.

The only way they are allowed is if (1) the drone operator has FAA certification to operate the drone and (b) if the drone operator provides insurance for $10,000,000 liability, specifically including unmanned aircraft systems (UAS) coverage, naming the SCCA and the usual list of additional insureds (which varies by venue for us.)

Sorry to be the buzz kill on this.

Mike

How is Amazon going to deliver my spark plugs to the event now?

Jay W

How ironic:
"drone(n): A drone is someone who follows an ideology or some other form of idealization blindly and uncritically."

BTW, according to the FAA the quads you've seen are not legally classed as "drones". I own several not-drones. Don't take them to events however, so don't hit me Boss.

Mike Simanyi wrote:The only way they are allowed is if (1) the drone operator has FAA certification to operate the drone and...
Mike

If the SCCA, or even SoCal Solo wants to outlaw them, they should just say "not allowed". Period.
But relating to FAA, there is no certification possible or required by the FAA. They are totally legal for "recreational" purposes, as long as flown below 400 feet, and sufficiently away from populated areas and full scale aircraft.

skateboards are also completely legal, and completely banned from SCCA solo.

the allowance for FAA certification is for commercial purposes for which there is a process to license.

I've seen several peer-reviewed law articles from major journals discussing the confusion and contradictions within FAA regulations over all uses of drones and drone like things. If the best legal minds in the country can't come to clear agreement on the state of regulation and process then I think the comments I've read above are not as authoritative as their author's believe.

Marshall Grice wrote:skateboards are also completely legal, and completely banned from SCCA solo.

I think at least that ban is gone now... I think. The verbiage banning skateboards/razors/etc. is no longer in the SCCA rule book last time I checked.

So, although we can't fly drones... we can fly our non-drones?

Steve Ekstrand wrote:I've seen several peer-reviewed law articles from major journals discussing the confusion and contradictions within FAA regulations over all uses of drones and drone like things. If the best legal minds in the country can't come to clear agreement on the state of regulation and process then I think the comments I've read above are not as authoritative as their author's believe.

How about directly off of the FAA website: http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/uas_faq/

Do I need to get approval from the FAA to fly a model aircraft for recreation?

No. FAA guidance does not address size of the model aircraft. FAA guidance says that model aircraft flights should be kept below 400 feet above ground level (AGL), should be flown a sufficient distance from populated areas and full scale aircraft, and are not for business purposes. 1, 2

More specifically here is the section of federal law exempting from licensing, and outlining what can be done with model aircraft.

SEC. 336. SPECIAL RULE FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT.
(a) IN GENERAL.—Notwithstanding any other provision of law
relating to the incorporation of unmanned aircraft systems into
Federal Aviation Administration plans and policies, including this
subtitle, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration
may not promulgate any rule or regulation regarding a model
aircraft, or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft, if—
(1) the aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational
use;
(2) the aircraft is operated in accordance with a communitybased
set of safety guidelines and within the programming
of a nationwide community-based organization;
(3) the aircraft is limited to not more than 55 pounds
unless otherwise certified through a design, construction,
inspection, flight test, and operational safety program administered
by a community-based organization;
(4) the aircraft is operated in a manner that does not
interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft; and
(5) when flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator
of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport
air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located
at the airport) with prior notice of the operation (model aircraft
operators flying from a permanent location within 5 miles of
an airport should establish a mutually-agreed upon operating
procedure with the airport operator and the airport air traffic
control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the
airport)).
(b) STATUTORY CONSTRUCTION.—Nothing in this section shall
be construed to limit the authority of the Administrator to pursue
enforcement action against persons operating model aircraft who
endanger the safety of the national airspace system.
(c) MODEL AIRCRAFT DEFINED.—In this section, the term ‘‘model
aircraft’’ means an unmanned aircraft that is—
(1) capable of sustained flight in the atmosphere;
(2) flown within visual line of sight of the person operating
the aircraft; and
(3) flown for hobby or recreational purposes.

So the "drones" as you labeled them are technically UA's, and all of them I've seen to date at an event unless owned and operated for commercial purposes (vs. hobbies) are legal to be flown. What jurisdiction does the SCCA have to outlaw them? Site locations maybe...but not the SCCA.

I would think an event site would be considered a populated area.

Quoc-Viet Dang wrote:The verbiage banning skateboards/razors/etc. is no longer in the SCCA rule book last time I checked.

Never was in the rule book, used to be in Tour/Pro/Nats supplements. I believe it came about because of poor pavement issues in Topeka. Disappeared from the sups a year or two after the site was dropped. Skateboard remained longer... can't recall if they are still listed or not...know the razor limit went away years ago, that's why I carry one now. Fits in a Miata trunk, where a bike does not.

Bill Martin wrote:I would think an event site would be considered a populated area.

Define populated.... I've seen 50+ people at El Toro down at the Model Aircraft zone on a Saturday. I've been to a model aircraft competition with several hundred people in attendance.

Craig Naylor wrote:So the "drones" as you labeled them are technically UA's, and all of them I've seen to date at an event unless owned and operated for commercial purposes (vs. hobbies) are legal to be flown. What jurisdiction does the SCCA have to outlaw them? Site locations maybe...but not the SCCA.

They provide our sanction, so that gives them jurisdiction.

But I suspect the answer you're really after is: When the insurance company notifies the SCCA that coverage doesn't extend to UAs.

KJ Christopher wrote:

Craig Naylor wrote:So the "drones" as you labeled them are technically UA's, and all of them I've seen to date at an event unless owned and operated for commercial purposes (vs. hobbies) are legal to be flown. What jurisdiction does the SCCA have to outlaw them? Site locations maybe...but not the SCCA.

They provide our sanction, so that gives them jurisdiction.

But I suspect the answer you're really after is: When the insurance company notifies the SCCA that coverage doesn't extend to UAs.

Your missing my point. We'll start with I don't own one... and I'm playing devil's advocate here... If I did and chose to fly one at an event... what are you going to do grab the controls from me and crash it? Sure you could ask me to leave... so one steps outside the wristband boundary point and flys from there. The side steps are boundless. It's an unenforceable mandate of a mute issue...as a NTSB Administrative Law Judge has actually written judgment against the FAA with prejudice saying the FAA has no jurisdiction over any model airplane issue even if for commercial usage.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 0277,d.cWc

So... just thinking out loud here...if the NTSB has determined the FAA does not have jurisdiction over model airplanes... what standing do you think they might find for a Sports Car Club over model airplanes?

In a way, drones, UAs, etc. are in our future (present). Having said that, and fully realizing that Mike is just the messenger, this is clearly a safety issue. The SCCA should not be simply kicking the can down the road toward the FAA. It clearly is NOT the FAA's jurisdiction. But I agree with KJ, it IS the SCCA's jurisdiction. They should attack this issue from the point of view that, at best, it's a distraction at a motorsports event, and at worst, it's a safety hazard to course workers and driver's, not to mention the possibility of property damage leading to an insurable or NON-insurable event.

Craig Naylor wrote: Your missing my point. We'll start with I don't own one... and I'm playing devil's advocate here... If I did and chose to fly one at an event... what are you going to do grab the controls from me and crash it? Sure you could ask me to leave... so one steps outside the wristband boundary point and flys from there. The side steps are boundless. It's an unenforceable mandate of a mute issue...as a NTSB Administrative Law Judge has actually written judgment against the FAA with prejudice saying the FAA has no jurisdiction over any model airplane issue even if for commercial usage.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 0277,d.cWc

So... just thinking out loud here...if the NTSB has determined the FAA does not have jurisdiction over model airplanes... what standing do you think they might find for a Sports Car Club over model airplanes?

WTF? the SCCA isn't going to arrest you for flying a quadcopter. They (we?) will do exactly what they would do in any other situation where they are operating outside of their liability insurance coverage, stop the event.

Bottom line is the SCCA dictate is poorly considered and written. Appears they've gotten all caught up in this huge Drone Scare perpetrated by the ignorant media. It's the political correctness of the thing that irritates me. The media doesn't know a drone from a kite.

Scca can require that we don't engage in any activity unnecessary to the event, especially if it has safety connotations. You can't just step outside the wristband area and carry on because you're still on private property and were not admitted for that purpose. And yes...I do realize this is a Devil's Advocate exercise for you. ;)

DARN IT, I was planning on bringing my drone out to the next event!

Will Kalman wrote:DARN IT, I was planning on bringing my drone out to the next event!

Bring it anyway Will. We can always "drone" anyone who objects! They won't know what hit 'em! }:)

Lots of extremes here. While I realize Craig was playing devil's advocate regarding getting around the rule, there are also lots of ways to stop you as was pointed out. You are on private property and the facility certainly has the right and authority to kick you out. SCCA's stance seems a little extreme, but I had someone come up to me at the event where one was flown and say that when they were driving that it was a distraction to them. That's all that's required to say no, you can't do that, at least in that way. There certainly could be safe, non-distracting ways of flying one and recording runs. Remember when kids karts first started? There was total paranoia, no car within 5 miles (slight exaggeration) was allowed to be moving. But we learned, adapted and now have them isolated enough when running that cars can be moving in grid.

So maybe an initial ban makes some sense, but there is no reason guidelines could not be developed to allow them in the future.

Rick Brown wrote:Lots of extremes here. While I realize Craig was playing devil's advocate regarding getting around the rule, there are also lots of ways to stop you as was pointed out. You are on private property and the facility certainly has the right and authority to kick you out. SCCA's stance seems a little extreme, but I had someone come up to me at the event where one was flown and say that when they were driving that it was a distraction to them. That's all that's required to say no, you can't do that, at least in that way. There certainly could be safe, non-distracting ways of flying one and recording runs. Remember when kids karts first started? There was total paranoia, no car within 5 miles (slight exaggeration) was allowed to be moving. But we learned, adapted and now have them isolated enough when running that cars can be moving in grid.

So maybe an initial ban makes some sense, but there is no reason guidelines could not be developed to allow them in the future.

Waaay to much common sense in that statement. In today's litigious society, banning something is the default position lest someone get hurt allowing a litigator to proclaim this should have been foreseen and the perpetrators deserve severe monetary punishment. It's the unfortunate sign of the times. Measured risk.......no longer allowed!

Bill Martin wrote:Bottom line is the SCCA dictate is poorly considered and written. Appears they've gotten a letter from their insurance carrier specifically stating that there is no coverage if an unmanned aircraft system causes any damage at an event.

FTFY

[
Waaay to much common sense in that statement. In today's litigious society, banning something is the default position lest someone get hurt allowing a litigator to proclaim this should have been foreseen and the perpetrators deserve severe monetary punishment. It's the unfortunate sign of the times. Measured risk.......no longer allowed! [/quote]


George - I agree 100% with you on your statement. I am surprised I don't have to wear a hard hat on the golf course to "save" me from errant golf balls

What do the FAA and the SCCA care if I play my bagpipes at an event?

Minion with vidcams would a far better choice. It might be fun running over a minion. Not sure about a UAV.

Will Kalman wrote:What do the FAA and the SCCA care if I play my bagpipes at an event?

Being of Scottish descent, I wouldn't mind, but others may find the "music" to be distracting, thus a safety hazard.