Rules Proposal - Octane

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Marshall Grice
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Re: Rules Proposal - Octane

Postby Marshall Grice » Wed Apr 18, 2018 9:26 pm

I don’t understand the “transparency” angle you guys have focused on. you all have stated the exact reasoning the SEB made its decicion in your arguments but still claim you don’t see the reasoning. I have personally spoon fed you the rationale in this thread and still you claim there is no transparency. Its obvious that you don’t agree with the reasoning but its hard to claim it isn’t transparent when you all seem to know why the change was proposed. The octane change is tied directly to the unlimited boost change in response to overwhelming feedback from the membership that increased power levels weren’t desired in ST. That is exactly what letter 14648 says. I don’t know what else to say.

candaul berber
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Re: Rules Proposal - Octane

Postby candaul berber » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:04 am

Marshall Grice wrote:I don’t understand the “transparency” angle you guys have focused on. you all have stated the exact reasoning the SEB made its decicion in your arguments but still claim you don’t see the reasoning. I have personally spoon fed you the rationale in this thread and still you claim there is no transparency. Its obvious that you don’t agree with the reasoning but its hard to claim it isn’t transparent when you all seem to know why the change was proposed. The octane change is tied directly to the unlimited boost change in response to overwhelming feedback from the membership that increased power levels weren’t desired in ST. That is exactly what letter 14648 says. I don’t know what else to say.


The problem is that somehow the issue of open boost, which would have been just fine if the planned move of turbos to STH had stood up, would have been constrained to STH. Instead the "fix" applied to the BOOST control problem was to punish cars without boost by restricting ALL of ST(the majority of whom are not boosted) to 91 octane, knowing full well the open boost issue would then solve itself. A problem solved with a lack of imagination. If contained within STH, people would very quickly figure out which cars' bottom ends could withstand 100 octane + unlimited boost and the issue would solve itself. Instead the an overreaction to a BOOST concern suddenly penalized the ST folks boosted or not. The lack of transparency relates to what problem does this 93 limit solves in the rest of ST. The answer is "none-it's just a penalty because we couldn't think of anything better to resolve it". There was clearly the fear that some stout Toyota turbo beast that could sustain 1000HP on stock internals with 31PSI would rule STH. Ok, so when/if that happens deal with that, don't penalize the entire ST. I would even go so far as to make a rule that if the first time a "class killer" showed up, was at Nationals, in order to preserve any sort of "fairness doctrine", that if it was deemed outside of the spirit of the class, that it could be allowed to compete, but not for trophies.(How's THAT for imagination?).
This stuff isn't hard, and I know folks want to do a good job, but if a long standing rule is suddenly overturned, there should be NO QUESTION as to why and a whole lot of open debate.

Derek

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Marshall Grice
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Re: Rules Proposal - Octane

Postby Marshall Grice » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:12 am

candaul berber wrote:This stuff isn't hard, and I know folks want to do a good job, but if a long standing rule is suddenly overturned, there should be NO QUESTION as to why and a whole lot of open debate.

Derek

I feel like you are under estimating the difficulty of having an open debate with thousands of people (autocrossers no less!) across the country simultaneously. You should come try being on one of the advisory committees sometime, it's great (<-- not sarcasm). As it turns out we might have an opening on the STAC sometime soon, please send in a resume.

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Anthony Porta
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Re: Rules Proposal - Octane

Postby Anthony Porta » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:17 pm

https://www.paragonlaboratories.com/tes ... -full-list

$310 to send it in here.

I think originally the idea was asked to not have to enforce this rule locally, but of course it's required by the rules. I doubt anyone will protest since people's maps will be tuned for 93.9 so 100 won't do much there. Unless they have 2 maps, but it's a local event, I don't see the people needing that, winning. I don't remember a local protest, anyone remember the last one?

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Rick Brown
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Re: Rules Proposal - Octane

Postby Rick Brown » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:23 pm

Anthony Porta wrote: I don't remember a local protest, anyone remember the last one?

Not in my memory, which goes waaaaay back, although admittedly spotty in places.......
Despite having a procedure in our supps, it has always been up to competitors in a class to "self regulate" (take the offender out behind the barn and ah, have a talk).
Since light is faster than sound...many people look bright until they speak...

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Craig Naylor
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Re: Rules Proposal - Octane

Postby Craig Naylor » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:42 pm

Sean Fenstermacher wrote:Seriously? $5000 kit just to make sure you fuel is compliant....omg lol

Please tell me the SEB worked out a member discount rate? Lol


or for $108.90
https://www.ebay.com/itm/OKTIS-2-ANALYZER-METER-OCTANE-NUMBER-PORTABLE-TESTER-NEW-English-Manual/282849190411?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3Dcf4c55df718346008afffc5dce35fcef%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D352320045188%26itm%3D282849190411&_trksid=p2385738.c100677.m4598

maybe not as fancy as the $5k one... but if your concerned about double checking your mix, post math calculation... I bet you could get close enough. :thumbup:

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Anthony Porta
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Re: Rules Proposal - Octane

Postby Anthony Porta » Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:48 am

Craig Naylor wrote:
Sean Fenstermacher wrote:Seriously? $5000 kit just to make sure you fuel is compliant....omg lol

Please tell me the SEB worked out a member discount rate? Lol


or for $108.90
https://www.ebay.com/itm/OKTIS-2-ANALYZER-METER-OCTANE-NUMBER-PORTABLE-TESTER-NEW-English-Manual/282849190411?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3Dcf4c55df718346008afffc5dce35fcef%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D4%26sd%3D352320045188%26itm%3D282849190411&_trksid=p2385738.c100677.m4598

maybe not as fancy as the $5k one... but if your concerned about double checking your mix, post math calculation... I bet you could get close enough. :thumbup:


You need to pour through 5 liters minimum to get a reading and it doesn't say what method it uses to measure said octane.

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Sean Fenstermacher
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Re: Rules Proposal - Octane

Postby Sean Fenstermacher » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:04 pm

looks like you can dunk it in your gas jug too, but it doesn't say what the tolerance is.
looks sketchy af
I think that russian tester is more meant to help combat watered down gas than for exact octane for compliance reasons.
Maybe SEB should buy one, test it vs its favorite lab

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Adam Tarnoff
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Re: Rules Proposal - Octane

Postby Adam Tarnoff » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:49 pm

Anthony Porta wrote:https://www.paragonlaboratories.com/testing-services/fuels-and-lubricants/fuels-and-lubricants-full-list

$310 to send it in here.

I think originally the idea was asked to not have to enforce this rule locally, but of course it's required by the rules. I doubt anyone will protest since people's maps will be tuned for 93.9 so 100 won't do much there. Unless they have 2 maps, but it's a local event, I don't see the people needing that, winning. I don't remember a local protest, anyone remember the last one?


Yeah that was about the scope of my original post. I didn't expect try to solve national level rules problems with this one - just allow local competitors to keep their existing tunes and not DPunch their motors at El Toro in the summer.
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