Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
Moderator: Mike Simanyi
- Steve Glusman
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Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
So how come in all my years in SoCal, no noe ever told me my roll bar might be non conforming?
Appendix C --- does it apply to FSP ?
Something about the fore/aft diag supports connecting to top 1/3 of the hoop....AHHHHH....mine is 50%
Of course, my detailed structural analysis indicates my 1800 lb car is fine....but no one at SCCA seems to know where the rule comes from or more specifically, has any analysis to understand it.
So.......does Appendix C apply to FSP?
Not lovin' the Philly chapter right now.....and it rains here......
Steve G
76 Spitfire......with a possibly non conforming roll bar!
Appendix C --- does it apply to FSP ?
Something about the fore/aft diag supports connecting to top 1/3 of the hoop....AHHHHH....mine is 50%
Of course, my detailed structural analysis indicates my 1800 lb car is fine....but no one at SCCA seems to know where the rule comes from or more specifically, has any analysis to understand it.
So.......does Appendix C apply to FSP?
Not lovin' the Philly chapter right now.....and it rains here......
Steve G
76 Spitfire......with a possibly non conforming roll bar!
- KJ Christopher
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
15.2.J.1 - Roll bars must comply with Section 13.2.H in Stock category.
13.2.H is spare tires. It looks like 13.2.G was added, bumping up the relevant section to 13.2.I. Someone should tell the SPAC.
13.2.I - Roll bars and roll cages may be added (See Appendix C). This allowance does not permit the removal of standard roll hoops. It is strongly recommended that roll cages be constructed according to the GCR, though they must be bolted (not welded) into the automobile and be contained within the driver/passenger compartment. Roll bars may be welded in. A roll cage has more than four attachment points to the body or frame, or has bracing both fore and aft of the main hoop.
Appendix C - Says a lot of things about roll bar and roll cage design.
So, if FSP required a roll bar (it doesn't - prepared would), then you would need to follow the guidelines in Appendix C.
In your case, I would just leave your tubular camera mount in place and forget about installing a roll bar.
13.2.H is spare tires. It looks like 13.2.G was added, bumping up the relevant section to 13.2.I. Someone should tell the SPAC.
13.2.I - Roll bars and roll cages may be added (See Appendix C). This allowance does not permit the removal of standard roll hoops. It is strongly recommended that roll cages be constructed according to the GCR, though they must be bolted (not welded) into the automobile and be contained within the driver/passenger compartment. Roll bars may be welded in. A roll cage has more than four attachment points to the body or frame, or has bracing both fore and aft of the main hoop.
Appendix C - Says a lot of things about roll bar and roll cage design.
So, if FSP required a roll bar (it doesn't - prepared would), then you would need to follow the guidelines in Appendix C.
In your case, I would just leave your tubular camera mount in place and forget about installing a roll bar.
kj
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- Keith Brown
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
What KJ said... unless you want to use non-factory upper body restraints (harness)... then you tubular camera mount must be appendix C compliant.
Keith
1990 Miata with the really big roll bar
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1990 Miata with the really big roll bar
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- Steve Glusman
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
so you guys think that as long as I'm using standard 3 point seat belt, Appendix C does not apply to my situation?
I know why I love the soCal SCCA group!
Steve G
I know why I love the soCal SCCA group!
Steve G
- John Coffey
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
Well... if you read 13.2.1 and Appendix C it only strongly recommends that a roll CAGE meet the GCR requirements. It doesn't have to and you can build a legal Solo2 roll cage out of any tubing you want, once you meet the roll bar requirements (and even that requirement can be challenged). So the forward door hoop or halo bar can be 1.5" x.032" wall tubing. Conversely, a Club Racing legal and stamped Showroom Stock, IT, or Touring welded in roll cage is illegal at a Solo2 event.
The Solo2 roll bar and cage rules need to be updated. I've written letters over the years and nothing gets done. It will most likely take an injury and a lawsuit to get the Solo2 community to take this seriously.
The Solo2 roll bar and cage rules need to be updated. I've written letters over the years and nothing gets done. It will most likely take an injury and a lawsuit to get the Solo2 community to take this seriously.
- Steve Glusman
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
From: Jeff Jacobs [mailto:cablelawyer@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 11:16 AM
To: Glusman, Steven I; Steven@ArandaGroup.com
Cc: jrfisher95@verizon.net; afuhs@comcast.net
Subject: Re: more roll bar questions
I've had a further exchange with the compliance guys at SCCA HQ about the roll bar rules.
First, let me start with what we believe the rules say and mean today: If you have a convertible or open top car, you are not required to have a roll bar to participate in Solo events. If you choose to install a roll bar, that roll bar must meet the requirements of Solo Rules Appendix C. Among other requirements, Appendix C requires the roll bar to have a fore or aft brace to prevent the roll bar from folding forward and injuring or trapping the driver in the event of a rollover. This requirement applies to all roll bars regardless of whether the driver is using the standard seat belt or a racing harness.
The Solo Rules allow an exception for the minimum height requirement of Appendix C for drivers who use only the regular seat belt, but there is no exception as to the fore or aft brace requirement. The answer to the question "isn't some roll bar better that no roll bar?" is under the current rules, no, an unsafe rollbar may be more dangerous than no roll bar at all.
Second, regarding the possibility of the SCCA or Philly Region SCCA granting a waiver of the bracing requirement, we cannot do that with the rules as written for insurance reasons. If we were to allow a waiver and then something happened, the driver's estate wouldn't care who asked for the waiver or why it was granted. Yes, everyone signs a liability waiver and release from liability to get into the event, but that just provides a potential defense - people sue anyway.
Third, none of this is to say that the rule could not be revised based on member input and further analysis. I would recommend that you put your ideas/analysis/data together for the SCCA Board of Directors to review. Start by submitting the information to Doug Gill and Brian Harmer - they can direct it to the right place and maybe even give you feedback as to questions or additional information needed. You could also post a draft on http://www.sccaforums.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to have other people provide comments and ask them to join in your petition if they agree with your analysis/proposal. Be patient with this process. The national staff and Board of Directors is going to be overwhelmed from now through the end of September with the Solo Nationals and club racing's Runoffs. After September they'll have more time to deal with issues like proposed rule changes.
Hope this is helpful guidance on your question,
Jeff Jacobs
Region Executive
Philadelphia Region SCCA
From: Jeff Jacobs [mailto:cablelawyer@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2011 11:16 AM
To: Glusman, Steven I; Steven@ArandaGroup.com
Cc: jrfisher95@verizon.net; afuhs@comcast.net
Subject: Re: more roll bar questions
I've had a further exchange with the compliance guys at SCCA HQ about the roll bar rules.
First, let me start with what we believe the rules say and mean today: If you have a convertible or open top car, you are not required to have a roll bar to participate in Solo events. If you choose to install a roll bar, that roll bar must meet the requirements of Solo Rules Appendix C. Among other requirements, Appendix C requires the roll bar to have a fore or aft brace to prevent the roll bar from folding forward and injuring or trapping the driver in the event of a rollover. This requirement applies to all roll bars regardless of whether the driver is using the standard seat belt or a racing harness.
The Solo Rules allow an exception for the minimum height requirement of Appendix C for drivers who use only the regular seat belt, but there is no exception as to the fore or aft brace requirement. The answer to the question "isn't some roll bar better that no roll bar?" is under the current rules, no, an unsafe rollbar may be more dangerous than no roll bar at all.
Second, regarding the possibility of the SCCA or Philly Region SCCA granting a waiver of the bracing requirement, we cannot do that with the rules as written for insurance reasons. If we were to allow a waiver and then something happened, the driver's estate wouldn't care who asked for the waiver or why it was granted. Yes, everyone signs a liability waiver and release from liability to get into the event, but that just provides a potential defense - people sue anyway.
Third, none of this is to say that the rule could not be revised based on member input and further analysis. I would recommend that you put your ideas/analysis/data together for the SCCA Board of Directors to review. Start by submitting the information to Doug Gill and Brian Harmer - they can direct it to the right place and maybe even give you feedback as to questions or additional information needed. You could also post a draft on http://www.sccaforums.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to have other people provide comments and ask them to join in your petition if they agree with your analysis/proposal. Be patient with this process. The national staff and Board of Directors is going to be overwhelmed from now through the end of September with the Solo Nationals and club racing's Runoffs. After September they'll have more time to deal with issues like proposed rule changes.
Hope this is helpful guidance on your question,
Jeff Jacobs
Region Executive
Philadelphia Region SCCA
- Steve Lepper
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
What Jeff is getting at is the concern that your "tubular camera mount" could ultimately do more injury than no bar at all in the event of a rollover. Now, while I don't agree with that in your situation, I can see this being the case with some of the "style bars" out there that are made of nothing more than muffler or aluminum tubing.
SCCA should have some simple, clear rules for rollbars. They could be "based" on the GCR, but spelled out clearly and separately for Solo competition. As John said, letters have been written (by several that I know of) yet nothing changes.
Since your roll bar is bolted in, it's not a big deal to take it out and to a good welding/fab shop where they can replace the legs with a pair that attaches in conformance with the rules. They will jig it to their welding table before making the modifications and it will drop right in the same holes when you get it back. While you're in there, add a diagonal tube if you don't already have one.
SCCA should have some simple, clear rules for rollbars. They could be "based" on the GCR, but spelled out clearly and separately for Solo competition. As John said, letters have been written (by several that I know of) yet nothing changes.
Since your roll bar is bolted in, it's not a big deal to take it out and to a good welding/fab shop where they can replace the legs with a pair that attaches in conformance with the rules. They will jig it to their welding table before making the modifications and it will drop right in the same holes when you get it back. While you're in there, add a diagonal tube if you don't already have one.
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
Also if you want to submit a letter to the SEB, we have a link on our main site (Solo2.com). Right hand side navigation bar at the bottom.
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- Steve Glusman
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
thanks...
already posted suggested rule change....I'm sure they are already reviewing it....yeh right!
problem with a modification for me is real estate. I can add a higher support but can't make the 30 degree requirement.
already posted suggested rule change....I'm sure they are already reviewing it....yeh right!
problem with a modification for me is real estate. I can add a higher support but can't make the 30 degree requirement.
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
Where is Jeff finding the word "must".
Dr. Conemangler
aka The Malefic One
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- Don Salyers
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
Steve, take it out! If the SCCA doesn't think it is safe, why have it...... Oh, I know, you need the extra weight...
Don
Don
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
Steve - I love those Harlan Coben books you recommended. I've read about six of them now.
*I realize this is not a helpful post in regards to your "roll bar"*
*I realize this is not a helpful post in regards to your "roll bar"*
- John Stimson
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
13.2.I says that roll bars or cages may be added (see appendix C). Appendix C defines the requirements for a roll bar. There are a lot of "musts" in Appendix C, and several "it is recommended thats". However, the requirement for where the fore/aft bracing attaches is a "must". The SEB keeps saying that it is still working on a revised set of roll bar / cage rules. I'm sure they could use some good advice. The lack of any definite requirements for a "roll cage" is probably the biggest failing. Also the fact that the GCRs have changed a great deal since the rule that refers to them was written. I think the Solo rule used to say that it was recommended that both roll bars and cages conform to the GCR -- the "bar" part of that was removed some time after the GCRs no longer allowed roll bars...Steve Ekstrand wrote:Where is Jeff finding the word "must".
In terms of class competition, a roll bar that doesn't meet the Appendix C requirements doesn't count as a roll bar, and is therefore unauthorized chassis bracing. That would be enforced by protests from other competitors in your class. I don't see anything that says the tech inspector can flunk a car for a non-compliant roll structure.
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
Correct. Tech cannot pull the sticker on a car with an invalid roll bar/cage. All they can do is determine that the structure in the car is/is not a roll bar/cage. They might be able to inform the Safety Steward or Even Chair that there is an unsafe structure in the car but that would be a tough call. What is "unsafe"?
There really is a lot wrong with the Solo2 roll bar/cage rules and, as requested, I submitted another letter.
Some issues:
1. Still allowing ERW tubing even after SCCA Club Racing documented numerous ERW tubing failures over the decades.
2. No mounting plate limitations. I can build mounting plates of unlimited size and shape as long a a tube is welded to it.
3. Still allowing chrome plating on roll bars.
4. Rear bracing tube diamater and wall thickness are open.
5. A diagonal in the main hoop is optional.
6. Still allowing cheap foam padding instead of the SFI padding required by Club Racing.
There really is a lot wrong with the Solo2 roll bar/cage rules and, as requested, I submitted another letter.
Some issues:
1. Still allowing ERW tubing even after SCCA Club Racing documented numerous ERW tubing failures over the decades.
2. No mounting plate limitations. I can build mounting plates of unlimited size and shape as long a a tube is welded to it.
3. Still allowing chrome plating on roll bars.
4. Rear bracing tube diamater and wall thickness are open.
5. A diagonal in the main hoop is optional.
6. Still allowing cheap foam padding instead of the SFI padding required by Club Racing.
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
3.3.3.B 18) Roll bars, if installed, must meet the applicable portions of 3.3.2 and
Appendix C with specific attention to roll bar height.
That sounds like where Jeff is getting the "must". Why the concern over height if no harness? And earlier it says height can be reduced to fit the hardtop.
It seems like a tortured interpretation to me to claim it isn't a roll bar, so tech isn't responsible for inspecting as required by 3.3.3.B.
Appendix C with specific attention to roll bar height.
That sounds like where Jeff is getting the "must". Why the concern over height if no harness? And earlier it says height can be reduced to fit the hardtop.
It seems like a tortured interpretation to me to claim it isn't a roll bar, so tech isn't responsible for inspecting as required by 3.3.3.B.
Dr. Conemangler
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
For clarity....tech passed me. Someone contacted safety steward who deemed roll bar to be non compliant
Yes I can remove it but I am convinced by analysis that it provides safety
Geometry in the car prohibits a fore aft support with required 30 deg incline
Ugh
Yes I can remove it but I am convinced by analysis that it provides safety
Geometry in the car prohibits a fore aft support with required 30 deg incline
Ugh
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
Max. I'm glad you like them, I've read every one!Max Hayter wrote:Steve - I love those Harlan Coben books you recommended. I've read about six of them now.
*I realize this is not a helpful post in regards to your "roll bar"*
Steve G :gpower:
- John Coffey
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
Exactly the way its normally happens. Unfortunately Tech is really not equipped or trained to determine roll bar/cage legality.For clarity....tech passed me. Someone contacted safety steward who deemed roll bar to be non compliant
Your analysis is irrelevant unless you submit your engineering analysis to National Tech for their approval.Yes I can remove it but I am convinced by analysis that it provides safety
There is an allowance in the GCR for a Petty Bar but that only applies to a roll cage. Honda Del Sols have run with a roll bar using a Petty Bar for a fore/aft brace. Also, I've seen any number of Spitfires (I think that's what your car is) running rear braces through the rear deck.Geometry in the car prohibits a fore aft support with required 30 deg incline
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
Or for that matter, driveshaft hoops, scatter shields or master switch reqs.John Coffey wrote: Exactly the way its normally happens. Unfortunately Tech is really not equipped or trained to determine roll bar/cage legality.
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- Steve Glusman
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
Yes, I did that with a recommended rule changeYour analysis is irrelevant unless you submit your engineering analysis to National Tech for their approval.
rear brace through the rear deck with the gas tank removed maybe......for a GP car......If someone has seen a way to brace through the rear deck making the 30 deg angle etc, pls let me know!Geometry in the car prohibits a fore aft support with required 30 deg incline................Also, I've seen any number of Spitfires (I think that's what your car is) running rear braces through the rear deck.
Appreciate all the thoughts...I really do....
Steve G
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
Thank you Mike!
************
John Coffey,
Your letter has been reviewed by the Safety committee, and a recommendation has been made to the SEB. The SEB will review your letter and the Safety committee's recommendation on their next conference call. Your letter details are below:
Letter #5801
Title: Roll Cage Proposal
Request: The SCCA SOlo2 roll CAGE rules must require a GCR compliant roll CAGE if a roll cage is installed in the vehicle. Specifically section "9.4 ROLL CAGES FOR GT AND PRODUCTION BASED CARS" with Stock, Street Touring, Street Prepared all meeting the SS, Touring, and IT 8 point limit, and Production, Mod, and SM not having that 8 point limit.
Thank you,
SEB
*******
************
John Coffey,
Your letter has been reviewed by the Safety committee, and a recommendation has been made to the SEB. The SEB will review your letter and the Safety committee's recommendation on their next conference call. Your letter details are below:
Letter #5801
Title: Roll Cage Proposal
Request: The SCCA SOlo2 roll CAGE rules must require a GCR compliant roll CAGE if a roll cage is installed in the vehicle. Specifically section "9.4 ROLL CAGES FOR GT AND PRODUCTION BASED CARS" with Stock, Street Touring, Street Prepared all meeting the SS, Touring, and IT 8 point limit, and Production, Mod, and SM not having that 8 point limit.
Thank you,
SEB
*******
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
If tech knew how to inspect cages, that rule change would make a lot of cars not be able to pass tech.
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
Perhaps existing cages could be grandfathered in...
- Marshall Grice
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
and alienate all the new build cars?Mike Simanyi wrote:Perhaps existing cages could be grandfathered in...
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Re: Roll Bar Rules - Street Prepared
It is interesting that there is currently an allowance for pre-85' "built" cars to have an aluminum structure - provided they can meet the requirements.Mike Simanyi wrote:Perhaps existing cages could be grandfathered in...
B. MATERIAL
After 9-22-85, aluminum is not an acceptable alternate material. Cars using aluminum roll bars or roll cages must file proof with the SD that the structure was approved prior to 9-22-85 as provided in this section.
Without a vehicle log book how does anyone track this? If you were to put a rule in place to grandfather in the current cars there is no way to track it.