Post Car Classing Help Questions Here!

[PatMcSwain]

Thanks Jay!

[Leonard Cachola]

First: What is the minimum age for a Car racer if they have completed a formal performance driving school? My daughter is 15.9 years old with a permit and beginners training.

SCCA defers to the local state rules on 'licencing'. So if she has a permit she can drive, but has to follow the same restrictions as on the public roads (e.g. 'Requires an Adult in the car'). Clear this with the event's particular management early though, they often don't know this national rule allowance and might balk at you wanting to be in the car.

We allow Novice class drivers to carry passengers with them on all runs in our region, so you riding with her is not a problem.

[Rick Brown]

I was under the impression SCCA had created a supplemental electric class, but can't find any info.

[Jeff Stuart]

Second: Is the 2014/15 Camaro Z/28 running AS with 200+ treadwear? Can I run 18" wheels that are 1/2" wider than stock (stock is 19x11 + 19x11.5) I have some 18x11 + 18x12's.

Looks like this one fell through the cracks.

It looks like they classed the Z/28 in AS in the March FasTrack, so yeah, with 200+ treadware tires you're in AS (actually 140+ treadware for the remainder of the year)

With the new +/-1" wheel diameter rule this year in the street (stock) classes, you are allowed to run an inch smaller than stock, however you have to retain the stock width to be legal. That being said, I doubt people will complain locally if you compete in S1 (SS, AS, BS, and FS cars combined) with wider wheels, as long as you don't win ;)

[Tyler_Trash]

Hello,
My name is Tyler and I'm planning on attending my first Cal Club solo next month,

I am not that new to solo I run down here in San Diego with SDR & SDAD.

I was just looking over some of the results from your last few events and noticed differences in classing,

What would my miata be?

its a 95 with a torsion,
front and rear sway bars,
shocks, springs
hankook c71 tires (40 tread wear) on stock wheels.
everything else is stock.

here in SDR I run with CSP.

Thanks everyone! looking foreword to running with you all.
-Tyler.

[Jeff Stuart]

We just recently combined all SP classes so they run together on index, that class is called simply "SP".

The tires, and I think the diff, are the only two things putting you in CSP, otherwise you'd be a prime candidate for STS.

I know there's at least one person who's run in STS with a torsen for awhile and it wasn't a huge problem, but again, it would have been a problem if he won.

[Tyler_Trash]

Awesome thank you, I'm gonna buy a number and register ASAP.

[PatMcSwain]

Second: Is the 2014/15 Camaro Z/28 running AS with 200+ treadwear? Can I run 18" wheels that are 1/2" wider than stock (stock is 19x11 + 19x11.5) I have some 18x11 + 18x12's.

Looks like this one fell through the cracks.

It looks like they classed the Z/28 in AS in the March FasTrack, so yeah, with 200+ treadware tires you're in AS (actually 140+ treadware for the remainder of the year)

With the new +/-1" wheel diameter rule this year in the street (stock) classes, you are allowed to run an inch smaller than stock, however you have to retain the stock width to be legal. That being said, I doubt people will complain locally if you compete in S1 (SS, AS, BS, and FS cars combined) with wider wheels, as long as you don't win ;)

Thanks,

Not a lot of chance of winning. I just like running.

[Neil Bhamb]

I ran a stock BRZ last year (2-3 events) and planning to stay Novice this year.

The new classing rules are throwing me off. Do I have this right?

Class: Novice (I would be "Street Tire 2" otherwise)
PAX: C Street (or is it C Street R)?
Vehicle #: This one I understand.

What should car labels say however? "N 505" still ok? If I move up out of novice will it then be "505 RTR"? Where is "S2" come in"?

Thanks to anyone who can make sense of all this. Cheers!

[Jeff Stuart]

I ran a stock BRZ last year (2-3 events) and planning to stay Novice this year.

With the new classing rules, I still register as "Novice", "S2" would only be when I move out of novice class?

What should the numbers on the car read (505 N)? If I was not novice would it still be "505 RTR"? Cheers.

Correct, S2 only when you're actually running in S2 (which is what more or less replaced RTR this year)

While you're running in NOV, all you really need on your car is 505 NOV.

RTR is no longer a thing. If you want to learn about the details of what changed with the stock/street classes this year, you can read about it here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7491

[Neil Bhamb]

THANK you. So I have numbers that say "505 RTR". I should throw away the ones that say "RTR" and instead get two sets of "NOV" and then later "S2"? And that'll last a couple seasons (assuming no mods to cars?)

[Rick Brown]

THANK you. So I have numbers that say "505 RTR". I should throw away the ones that say "RTR" and instead get two sets of "NOV" and then later "S2"? And that'll last a couple seasons (assuming no mods to cars?)

You didn't mention what tires you are using, that determines CS or CSR. I'm guessing a higher than 140 treadwear since you ran RTR last year, so CS. NOV plus your car number is not enough, we (Timing & Scoring) want your base class also (not everyone working the timing computer is a classing expert). So your class letters should really be NOV CS, then CS2 when you move out of Novice. We assume what is on your car is correct and if the computer says different, we change it to match your car. In NOV especially, the base class can be anything and we have no way of knowing what has or has not been done to a given car.

[Jeff Stuart]

You didn't mention what tires you are using, that determines CS or CSR. I'm guessing a higher than 140 treadwear since you ran RTR last year, so CS. NOV plus your car number is not enough, we (Timing & Scoring) want your base class also (not everyone working the timing computer is a classing expert). So your class letters should really be NOV CS, then CS2 when you move out of Novice. We assume what is on your car is correct and if the computer says different, we change it to match your car. In NOV especially, the base class can be anything and we have no way of knowing what has or has not been done to a given car.

In my experience, many people at every event don't display their index class when they're running NOV (and in many cases the same applies to people running other index classes, though to a lesser extent). The index class is already in the computer from registration, right? When I work the computer, all I have to do is enter the car number since they're unique at local events.

That being said, I always show my index class, but I thought it was more of an optional or informational thing, not a requirement. That's fine if it's a requirement, I just didn't realize it was.

[Jayson Woodruff]

In my experience, many people at every event don't display their index class when they're running NOV (and in many cases the same applies to people running other index classes, though to a lesser extent). The index class is already in the computer from registration, right? When I work the computer, all I have to do is enter the car number since they're unique at local events.

That being said, I always show my index class, but I thought it was more of an optional or informational thing, not a requirement. That's fine if it's a requirement, I just didn't realize it was.

Yeah it all works great until it doesn't. When people switch cars or incorrectly classify themselves its a lot easier to 'notice' when they run thier class id on the car. Which means less post event fixes.

Jay W

[Rick Brown]

In my experience, many people at every event don't display their index class when they're running NOV (and in many cases the same applies to people running other index classes, though to a lesser extent). The index class is already in the computer from registration, right? When I work the computer, all I have to do is enter the car number since they're unique at local events.

That being said, I always show my index class, but I thought it was more of an optional or informational thing, not a requirement. That's fine if it's a requirement, I just didn't realize it was.

Yeah it all works great until it doesn't. When people switch cars or incorrectly classify themselves its a lot easier to 'notice' when they run thier class id on the car. Which means less post event fixes.

Jay W

Yep. If you notice in the results listings there are always a good number of posts from me with updates, most of which are reclassing issues. I'm terrible at car classing, especially in stock. In 42 years of autocrossing I've never competed in a stock class. Some computer operators are very good at noticing a likely miss classed car, some are not. That's both in Timing and at Registration. I try to make it a little easier, like only asking for the 1,2, 3 or R for stock classes instead of the full S2 CS. Or since we combined all SP cars, SP CSP would be redundant, so the class is enough. We'll save readability and color combinations for another day .

[Neil Bhamb]

Thanks for the explanations. I have the stock tires - 240 treadwear. Let's see if I have this down -

"Class" is set by the SCCA nationally, my Subaru BRZ is "CS" = "C street class"; the next class up being "CSR" = C Street-R class.

"Novice" is a local/regional class, and during my time in this class, it effectively supercedes my base class for competitive rankings. When I choose to step out of Novice class, then my SCCA, nationally determined, "CS" class takes over right?

So what is the two in CS2 and why does it apply after I drop Novice? Does it have something to do with the way the PAX/RTP indexes are used to adjust times?

[Craig Naylor]

Thanks for the explanations. I have the stock tires - 240 treadwear. Let's see if I have this down -

"Class" is set by the SCCA nationally, my Subaru BRZ is "CS" = "C street class"; the next class up being "CSR" = C Street-R class.

Correct, if by "up", your only referring to treadwear.

"Novice" is a local/regional class, and during my time in this class, it effectively supercedes my base class for competitive rankings. When I choose to step out of Novice class, then my SCCA, nationally determined, "CS" class takes over right?

Incorrect, you times are still indexed by your base class. This should be listed on your car. You should have 505 NOV CS or NOV CS 505 on your car.

So what is the two in CS2 and why does it apply after I drop Novice? Does it have something to do with the way the PAX/RTP indexes are used to adjust times?

Not sure where the "CS1,2,3" vs "S1,2,3" came from in Ricks post... hopefully we won't be forcing those in the classes to add a letter next year...
But to answer your question we break the Stock class cars on street tires into three groups, While not an entirely applicable description, S1 is the High HP classes: SS,AS,BS, and S2 is the lower HP classes: CS, DS, ES, leaving the low HP FWD cars in S3: GS,HS.

Hope that helps.

[Rick Brown]

Not sure where the "CS1,2,3" vs "S1,2,3" came from in Ricks post... hopefully we won't be forcing those in the classes to add a letter next year...
But to answer your question we break the Stock class cars on street tires into three groups, While not an entirely applicable description, S1 is the High HP classes: SS,AS,BS, and S2 is the lower HP classes: CS, DS, ES, leaving the low HP FWD cars in S3: GS,HS.

When we settled on the combined Street classes, S1, S2, S3, I made a post that rather than having to put S1 SS, S1 AS, S1 BS, S2 CS, etc. on the cars, that simply adding the appropriate number to your class letters would be sufficient for Timing, plus people would have to buy/make less fewer letters.

[Guy Walker]

Hmm... I think of it as car classes (SS, AS, BS, CS, etc.) and competition classes (PAX, S1, S2, S3, etc.)... sometimes the two overlap. SCCA sets up the car classes and the region sets up competition classes where drivers of cars compete in either a single car class or multiple car classes (through car class indexing). Is it that simple or am I missing something?

What we put on the car helps timing and scoring get things right in the computer when we mess up during registration.

[Rick Brown]

Hmm... I think of it as car classes (SS, AS, BS, CS, etc.) and competition classes (PAX, S1, S2, S3, etc.)... sometimes the two overlap. SCCA sets up the car classes and the region sets up competition classes where drivers of cars compete in either a single car class or multiple car classes (through car class indexing). Is it that simple or am I missing something?

What we put on the car helps timing and scoring get things right in the computer when we mess up during registration.

Bingo!

[Neil Bhamb]

Hmm... I think of it as car classes (SS, AS, BS, CS, etc.) and competition classes (PAX, S1, S2, S3, etc.)... sometimes the two overlap. SCCA sets up the car classes and the region sets up competition classes where drivers of cars compete in either a single car class or multiple car classes (through car class indexing). Is it that simple or am I missing something?

What we put on the car helps timing and scoring get things right in the computer when we mess up during registration.

Brilliant. So I would be ranked against everyone in S2 (CS, DS & ES); but each car would have a PAX index applied to it that depends on the car class (i.e. an ES car with a slower time would be adjusted higher). Individual model of car does not change your PAX index right, just the car class?

[Guy Walker]

Brilliant. So I would be ranked against everyone in S2 (CS, DS & ES); but each car would have a PAX index applied to it that depends on the car class (i.e. an ES car with a slower time would be adjusted higher). Individual model of car does not change your PAX index right, just the car class?

Looks good up to the last sentence/question. The term PAX is the same as what I call the car class index. The individual model of car puts the car into a car class which has a PAX/car class index. So, in effect, the individual model of car determines your PAX/car class index.

I, personally, use the term car class index instead of PAX because car class index makes more sense to me... especially since PAX is the name of a catchall competition class where drivers of cars in any car class can compete against each other. Having one term, PAX, mean two different things is just confusing to me. Call me simple... I like car class index.

[Rick Brown]

Brilliant. So I would be ranked against everyone in S2 (CS, DS & ES); but each car would have a PAX index applied to it that depends on the car class (i.e. an ES car with a slower time would be adjusted higher). Individual model of car does not change your PAX index right, just the car class?

Looks good up to the last sentence/question. The term PAX is the same as what I call the car class index. The individual model of car puts the car into a car class which has a PAX/car class index. So, in effect, the individual model of car determines your PAX/car class index.

I, personally, use the term car class index instead of PAX because car class index makes more sense to me... especially since PAX is the name of a catchall competition class where drivers of cars in any car class can compete against each other. Having one term, PAX, mean two different things is just confusing to me. Call me simple... I like car class index.

Unfortunately, MSR, the registration system we use, uses PAX as the term on the registration window where you indicate your class and index (if necessary). Even though they refer to it as a "modifier" in other areas. I have a number of people that, despite instructions to the contrary that say to leave it blank, insist on selecting a class in the PAX window when they are not running an indexed class. So I get a number of CS CS, ASP ASP, etc. classes which causes an error when importing into the timing software. And most of the people doing this are not newbies. Be nice if that PAX window only appeared if you select an indexed class.

Probably wasn't the best idea to call our class PAX. Some regions call the same class Pro Class. I too, generally use the term index.

[Kurt Rahn]

First: What is the minimum age for a Car racer if they have completed a formal performance driving school? My daughter is 15.9 years old with a permit and beginners training. She has over 1000 street miles logged.

Second: Is the 2014/15 Camaro Z/28 running AS with 200+ treadwear? Can I run 18" wheels that are 1/2" wider than stock (stock is 19x11 + 19x11.5) I have some 18x11 + 18x12's.

Third: How would I class a Chevrolet Volt with the engine disabled (bolted plug visible in the exhaust pipe, removable for street use). Have both 17x7's and 18x8's. Can it run in Electric with the 18's? What is the treadwear limit?

OR, if I just want to Run-What-You-Brung with 3800lb domestic cars, do I just go Time Only, or is there a catchall class?

Fourth: Am I on the right board? My user and password did not work, so I had to make a new one. I used to post on http://www.solo2.com.

Your daughter can run with a permit, but a licensed driver has to be her passenger (at least that's how it was a couple years ago when my son started auto crossing).

For the camaro, if you're running in AS, you have to have the same diameter as stock +/- 1", the same width and within 1/4" of stock offset to be legal.

Don't know about the volt.

[Neil Bhamb]

Thanks guys, I appreciate the clarification.