Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

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Craig Naylor
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Craig Naylor »


These are the same two guys I bought my most of the parts for my car off of. There a couple of canyon runners, who keep wrecking, have a little shop in Upland to move the parts scavenged of one car to put onto the next, and sell the remainder of parted out parts to pay for their habit.

I wasn't to thrilled buying (knowing what it was supporting) but at the same time found a bunch of the parts I was looking for locally for slightly less than average Craigslist prices with no shipping costs.
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Marcus Russell »

Helicopters burn a lot of fuel, so it had to be dispatched for a reason other than just to look at the highway. I guess they stumbled on you and took a swing, which really sucks. But they were actively looking for some kind of activity, chalk it up to wrong place, wrong time.

Unless the officer is SAE certified or DOT certified he doesn't have the training to make on the road assessment of a car's modifications and this is the second line of defense if they try to perform an illegal search. What he thinks he saw in a hood vent is irrelevant. If he didn't get a clear, unobstructed view of your engine bay he'd be foolish to state in open court what he thinks he saw. Even if your hood was open when he walked up, he doesn't have probably cause to even consider what's going on in the engine bay unless you leave it open and allow him to look around and see what goes where. He can only discuss/harass you about the reason you were stopped unless something like a dead body or marijuana plants are clearly visible in your vehicle.

I really don't think printing CARB stickers is a good idea. You're attempting to make a mockery of the entire referee process and asking for harsh treatment. Furthermore, printing a fake sticker and applying it to a part that you know is not compliant means you knowingly attempting to conceal your car's modifications and is and admission of guilt.

You are in violation and you need to accept the penalties. I know you wanna stay on the street (I'd be suicidal without Sourpuss) but there's a lot more to lose here if you try to get cute (like this scenario giving every officer in the future probable cause to search your vehicle in its entirety since you have been labeled a habitual offender). California really likes to make examples of people and you don't want to be the reason a new law or enforcement process is started. And you had numbers on the side of your car, that's pretty in-your-face to the Po-Po...they aren't going to let this go easily and there's a pretty good chance that the opposite side of this dialogue is going on over on the Cop boards and they might be prepared for your fake sticker attempt (I'm sure this has been tried in the past)

Having a California drivers license and out of state tags is an immediate tow and since this is a state of transients they don't take to it to kindly. And they know who you are and where you live. If you fight too hard you will become some cop's reason to get up every morning and you may find yourself being stopped all the time for minor infractions
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Mike Simanyi »

Chris,

Find a used 1/2-ton truck, make it your daily driver and buy a used trailer. I think that's your best option if you want to retain the modifications. Your car clearly is not California smog-legal. I agree with Marcus that printing CARB E.O. stickers and falsely applying them will only result in much more grief for you in the long run.

Mike
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Steve Ekstrand »

You see Sourpuss and you see a cool old classic car.

You see the Christos special and it screams pull me over and find my illegal stuff.
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Christos Adam »

Marcus sand Mike:
If I print (or legally get) the CARB sticker would be only in case a police officer pulls me over to prove in his untrained eyes that it's carb legal.
I'm not planning to "trick" a referee or anything like that...

Marcus
So what should I answer in the question if I have any modifications on the car? :?
It seems that I'll end up putting everything to stock and putting everything back together but the point is what should I do to avoid doing that every time I get pulled over for the most ridiculous/or even made up reason :roll:
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Christos Adam »

Steve Ekstrand wrote:You see Sourpuss and you see a cool old classic car.

You see the Christos special and it screams pull me over and find my illegal stuff.
LOL so true :lol:
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Christos Adam »

Hey guys, what is the fine in California for attaching tag not assigned? :ibrightdea:
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Aaron Goldsmith »

Christos Adam wrote:Hey guys, what is the fine in California for attaching tag not assigned? :ibrightdea:
If this goes to court, you do realize this all gets indexed by Google and Yahoo, right?
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Christos Adam »

Aaron Goldsmith wrote:
Christos Adam wrote:Hey guys, what is the fine in California for attaching tag not assigned? :ibrightdea:
If this goes to court, you do realize this all gets indexed by Google and Yahoo, right?
Is that a criminal charge in Cali?
These days you can buy a bone stock blue miata for less than half of what you pay for a set of Konis so I had an idea but maybe it's too risky }:)
Still it would be fun to drive your other car to the referee every time you get pulled over w/o having to worry about swapping stuff 8-)
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Michael Smith »

  • Get the 3rd brake light signed off.
  • Get the engine stock and signed off.
Decide if you want a non-op car you have to trailer. If not, figure out how to conceal any questionable items for future pull overs.
Having a carb sticker from the lesser known company would be the way to go.
I have Integra charge piping with a Greddy carb sticker on it. Are the rest of the parts from Greddy, No.
If you are up front with police officers, they are usually not that bad.

Oh ya, one more option. Run in the stock class. :lol:
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Christos Adam »

Michael Smith wrote:
  • Get the 3rd brake light signed off.
  • Get the engine stock and signed off.
Decide if you want a non-op car you have to trailer. If not, figure out how to conceal any questionable items for future pull overs.
Having a carb sticker from the lesser known company would be the way to go.
I have Integra charge piping with a Greddy carb sticker on it. Are the rest of the parts from Greddy, No.
If you are up front with police officers, they are usually not that bad.

Oh ya, one more option. Run in the stock class. :lol:
Thanks Michael
I think that's my plan!
I was very nice with the police officers and honestly if I had a CARB sticker they might have let me go w/o a ticket.
At the same time I didn't have my insurance with me (had the previous paper that had expired a month+ ago) and he was good about it (he didn't write me a ticket for that).
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Christos Adam »

Sounds a bit silly but is there any way that I can register the car as a kit car?
Would that make it legal as long as it pass the sniffer test? :ibrightdea:
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Andrew Bingham »

"I do not consent to any search of my vehicle."

"Am I under arrest?" / "Am I free to go"

That said, your car clearly isn't street legal anymore, and you should probably just accept that rather then trying to get around it. If it looked stock on the exterior you might be okay.... Karen hasn't ever been stopped with all of her decals and rollbar (knock on wood) but you've got significant modified bodywork and a turbo... I just don't see a good way out of this...
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Craig Naylor »

OT a little - witnessed and stayed for the aftermath of a messy wreck last March on the way home from Ventura. Guy in a BMW M3 (complete loss) passed me while I was just over posted at what I would have estimated 125+ Not five seconds later wiped out several cars 300 yards or so ahead (or farther than I had traveled in that same 5 sec)- sure of the time and speed I can play it out in my head to this day including his 6 lane changes before losing control. (Someone here can probably do the math on what speed that really was.) Received a criminal subpoena as a witness a few weeks later for a May trial date. Keeps getting delayed.

Today I learned I would not be needed as a witness. He plead guilty without a trial: DUI & excessive speed. Sentence - 30 days suspended, 104 weekly AA meetings. No loss of license as he had already lost it on a prior DUI. Total loss of words to understand..... 30 days suspended???? Aren't their minimums out there?

The kid (my guess 18-22) must have had dirt on someone, or had family connections. I understand defense attorneys doing their job, but don't they have families who share the roads with these people too?
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Christos Adam »

Craig Naylor wrote:OT a little - witnessed and stayed for the aftermath of a messy wreck last March on the way home from Ventura. Guy in a BMW M3 (complete loss) passed me while I was just over posted at what I would have estimated 125+ Not five seconds later wiped out several cars 300 yards or so ahead (or farther than I had traveled in that same 5 sec)- sure of the time and speed I can play it out in my head to this day including his 6 lane changes before losing control. (Someone here can probably do the math on what speed that really was.) Received a criminal subpoena as a witness a few weeks later for a May trial date. Keeps getting delayed.

Today I learned I would not be needed as a witness. He plead guilty without a trial: DUI & excessive speed. Sentence - 30 days suspended, 104 weekly AA meetings. No loss of license as he had already lost it on a prior DUI. Total loss of words to understand..... 30 days suspended???? Aren't their minimums out there?

The kid (my guess 18-22) must have had dirt on someone, or had family connections. I understand defense attorneys doing their job, but don't they have families who share the roads with these people too?
Craig I can re-assure you that I haven't done more than 125mpg since I've done most of the modifications :king: :thumbup:
Btw impressive that he managed to survive after crashing in such high speed...
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Tom Berry »

1) When I saw the picture of the car as you drove it that night... I not sure why you made it the half mile before you got pulled over.
2) Ever seen the plates on my Evo ?
3) I have a 97 Miata at the house that I am parting out. If you need any of the parts from it to make yours pass your inspection, contact me.
4) I aggree with the truck and trailer idea.
5) Good luck!
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Christos Adam »

Tom Berry wrote:1) When I saw the picture of the car as you drove it that night... I not sure why you made it the half mile before you got pulled over.
2) Ever seen the plates on my Evo ?
3) I have a 97 Miata at the house that I am parting out. If you need any of the parts from it to make yours pass your inspection, contact me.
4) I aggree with the truck and trailer idea.
5) Good luck!
Thank you Tom
What would be the easiest swap?
Remove the all the components (custom intake, injectors, exhaust manifold EGR, turbo) or get a second stock engine with all the components and swap them with the cherry picker?

Does anyone know what's the procedure if the vin number in the firewall is missing (let's say I cut it to put an oil cooler there and I still have the piece of metal) would the referee do the inspection as long as the vins at the fenders and the dash agree?
It's very tempting getting another Laguna blue miata for $2-3K and have only for inspection purposes...
If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Tom Berry »

Christos Adam wrote:
Tom Berry wrote:1) When I saw the picture of the car as you drove it that night... I not sure why you made it the half mile before you got pulled over.
2) Ever seen the plates on my Evo ?
3) I have a 97 Miata at the house that I am parting out. If you need any of the parts from it to make yours pass your inspection, contact me.
4) I aggree with the truck and trailer idea.
5) Good luck!
Thank you Tom
What would be the easiest swap?
Remove the all the components (custom intake, injectors, exhaust manifold EGR, turbo) or get a second stock engine with all the components and swap them with the cherry picker?

Does anyone know what's the procedure if the vin number in the firewall is missing (let's say I cut it to put an oil cooler there and I still have the piece of metal) would the referee do the inspection as long as the vins at the fenders and the dash agree?
It's very tempting getting another Laguna blue miata for $2-3K and have only for inspection purposes...
The easy thing to do is swap it complete. If your Public vin # was missing... then the cops that pulled you over are brain dead. Based on this new info, I think you really need to take this car off the street for sure. The referee will catch that for sure, and if its been tampered with at all, you will be in big trouble with that car. If you like, call me. I might be able to save you a ton of aggrivation. Cell # 909-641-1123
Tom
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Kurt Rahn »

Christos Adam wrote:Does anyone know what's the procedure if the vin number in the firewall is missing (let's say I cut it to put an oil cooler there and I still have the piece of metal) would the referee do the inspection as long as the vins at the fenders and the dash agree?
It's very tempting getting another Laguna blue miata for $2-3K and have only for inspection purposes...
Excuse me if I'm being too forward, but it seems like you're irrationally attached to the idea of driving this car on the street, and I can't figure out why. The stuff you're talking about is expensive (to the point where you could just buy a used Miata to tool around in on the street), and potentially very damaging to your driving and/or legal record. Trying to pull shenanigans with the cops isn't a great idea, in my experience.
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Christos Adam »

Tom Berry wrote:
Christos Adam wrote:
Tom Berry wrote:1) When I saw the picture of the car as you drove it that night... I not sure why you made it the half mile before you got pulled over.
2) Ever seen the plates on my Evo ?
3) I have a 97 Miata at the house that I am parting out. If you need any of the parts from it to make yours pass your inspection, contact me.
4) I aggree with the truck and trailer idea.
5) Good luck!
Thank you Tom
What would be the easiest swap?
Remove the all the components (custom intake, injectors, exhaust manifold EGR, turbo) or get a second stock engine with all the components and swap them with the cherry picker?

Does anyone know what's the procedure if the vin number in the firewall is missing (let's say I cut it to put an oil cooler there and I still have the piece of metal) would the referee do the inspection as long as the vins at the fenders and the dash agree?
It's very tempting getting another Laguna blue miata for $2-3K and have only for inspection purposes...
The easy thing to do is swap it complete. If your Public vin # was missing... then the cops that pulled you over are brain dead. Based on this new info, I think you really need to take this car off the street for sure. The referee will catch that for sure, and if its been tampered with at all, you will be in big trouble with that car. If you like, call me. I might be able to save you a ton of aggrivation. Cell # 909-641-1123
Tom
Thank you so much Tom.
My vin is not missing sorry for the miss understanding... I was just thinking that things might be better if my vin was missing from the firewall but I guess not...
I'll follow your advice do a swap and smog it...
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Christos Adam »

Kurt Rahn wrote:
Christos Adam wrote:Does anyone know what's the procedure if the vin number in the firewall is missing (let's say I cut it to put an oil cooler there and I still have the piece of metal) would the referee do the inspection as long as the vins at the fenders and the dash agree?
It's very tempting getting another Laguna blue miata for $2-3K and have only for inspection purposes...
Excuse me if I'm being too forward, but it seems like you're irrationally attached to the idea of driving this car on the street, and I can't figure out why. The stuff you're talking about is expensive (to the point where you could just buy a used Miata to tool around in on the street), and potentially very damaging to your driving and/or legal record. Trying to pull shenanigans with the cops isn't a great idea, in my experience.
You are absolutely right Kurt, I was just trying to see if there is anything else I can do... but there isn't.
Thank you for your support and advice guys and I apologize if I went a bit too far with my "stories"...
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Marcus Russell »

Christos Adam wrote:Marcus sand Mike:
If I print (or legally get) the CARB sticker would be only in case a police officer pulls me over to prove in his untrained eyes that it's carb legal.
I'm not planning to "trick" a referee or anything like that...

Marcus
So what should I answer in the question if I have any modifications on the car? :?
It seems that I'll end up putting everything to stock and putting everything back together but the point is what should I do to avoid doing that every time I get pulled over for the most ridiculous/or even made up reason :roll:


I still think the sticker is a bad strategy because it's very easily converted to evidence against you. The truly smart cops will inspect your car just to record the number down so they can verify them later (because this car is still on the street and obviously not compliant and this guy just keeps driving it) - that's where it becomes a legal nightmare. A onetime offender that was not aware of the law or his transgressions would not have counterfeit CARB stickers on his components; therefore you must be something much, much worse.

The correct answer to that question is to ask another question: "why have I been stopped?" which should be followed by "what does [officer's reason for the stop] have to do with questioning me about modifications to my car? That should pretty much stop him in his tracks, but this is a rather aggressive tactic and you risk escalating the situation so you need to deliver the line in a firm, yet respectful manner. Since we have laws on the books in this state that allow cops to stop cars that they suspect to be modified...they have a bit of latitude to ask these kinds of questions and if you've been stopped strictly because they think your car is modified you will then have to answer the question.

The answer to the modification question is "no, I haven't made any modifications" or "I have modified the lock on the glove box". I would either blatantly lie or redirect the question to something arcane and irrelevant so that the officer attempts another strategy (but you are tap dancing at this point). The issue here is what the term "modification" means and you have to use semantics to defend yourself. Technically anything that didn't come out of the factory is a modification in California, but exchanging a stock fuel rail for an aftermarket one isn't really a "modification" (but according to how the law is written it could be considered a modification). It's a loaded question that is designed to either self-incriminate or to get the less-than-astute to grant a search. What you know and what you can prove are two very different things, so there's no real fear in telling this...uh, embellishment. Since they don't have probable cause to conduct a search there is no way to verify that you just lied.

A majority of the violations are related to 27151http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc27151.htm which is illegal modification of an exhaust to make it louder and many of these tickets were challenged and beat because no sound testing was done during the stop. But be advised there is a new law on the books 27150.2 VC which does not require sound testing to be done and relies on the officers discretion and forces the cited individual to go to a smog referee or a court directed testing station to see what the sound level really is. I think this VC is beatable because section D. of this code states:

(d) The station shall charge a fee for the exhaust system certificate of compliance issued pursuant to subdivision (a). The fee charged shall be calculated to recover the costs incurred by the Department of Consumer Affairs to implement this section. The fees charged by the station shall be deposited in the Vehicle Inspection and Repair Fund established by Section 44062 of the Health and Safety Code.

...this is a money grab. Officers cannot arbitrarily cite and refer private citizens to testing stations for compliance and charge a fee for this "service". Pointing out this blatant fleecing of California residents (and the fact that sportscars are being unfairly targeted) should be enough to get this dismissed.

The best way to avoid this situation is to have all your documents ready when he approaches your vehicle and not to fight the ticket that he's trying to give you. Fight the ticket in court, the more time he spends near your vehicle the greater the chance he'll try to conduct a search. Having your documents ready and refusing to answer the questions forces him to just write the ticket. You cannot be detained indefinitely, and the officer cannot change his reason for the traffic stop. Listen to exactly what he says and how he says it. You can rebut an accusation without arguing the point. It indicates that you know your rights and that this stop is going to result in a lot of paperwork. It also helps greatly to have a clean driving record because we mammals tend to be creatures of habit and no officer is really trying to go to court with trumped up charges against a citizen who knows his rights and has a clean driving record.

here is a link to the laws that govern your traffic stop http://www.teamsheriffracing.com/index. ... Itemid=117


Steve - thanks for the props man, you made my day
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Kurt Rahn »

Marcus Russell wrote:I still think the sticker is a bad strategy because it's very easily converted to evidence against you. The truly smart cops will inspect your car just to record the number down so they can verify them later (because this car is still on the street and obviously not compliant and this guy just keeps driving it) - that's where it becomes a legal nightmare. A onetime offender that was not aware of the law or his transgressions would not have counterfeit CARB stickers on his components; therefore you must be something much, much worse.

The correct answer to that question is to ask another question: "why have I been stopped?" which should be followed by "what does [officer's reason for the stop] have to do with questioning me about modifications to my car? That should pretty much stop him in his tracks, but this is a rather aggressive tactic and you risk escalating the situation so you need to deliver the line in a firm, yet respectful manner. Since we have laws on the books in this state that allow cops to stop cars that they suspect to be modified...they have a bit of latitude to ask these kinds of questions and if you've been stopped strictly because they think your car is modified you will then have to answer the question.

The answer to the modification question is "no, I haven't made any modifications" or "I have modified the lock on the glove box". I would either blatantly lie or redirect the question to something arcane and irrelevant so that the officer attempts another strategy (but you are tap dancing at this point). The issue here is what the term "modification" means and you have to use semantics to defend yourself. Technically anything that didn't come out of the factory is a modification in California, but exchanging a stock fuel rail for an aftermarket one isn't really a "modification" (but according to how the law is written it could be considered a modification). It's a loaded question that is designed to either self-incriminate or to get the less-than-astute to grant a search. What you know and what you can prove are two very different things, so there's no real fear in telling this...uh, embellishment. Since they don't have probable cause to conduct a search there is no way to verify that you just lied.

A majority of the violations are related to 27151http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc27151.htm which is illegal modification of an exhaust to make it louder and many of these tickets were challenged and beat because no sound testing was done during the stop. But be advised there is a new law on the books 27150.2 VC which does not require sound testing to be done and relies on the officers discretion and forces the cited individual to go to a smog referee or a court directed testing station to see what the sound level really is. I think this VC is beatable because section D. of this code states:

(d) The station shall charge a fee for the exhaust system certificate of compliance issued pursuant to subdivision (a). The fee charged shall be calculated to recover the costs incurred by the Department of Consumer Affairs to implement this section. The fees charged by the station shall be deposited in the Vehicle Inspection and Repair Fund established by Section 44062 of the Health and Safety Code.

...this is a money grab. Officers cannot arbitrarily cite and refer private citizens to testing stations for compliance and charge a fee for this "service". Pointing out this blatant fleecing of California residents (and the fact that sportscars are being unfairly targeted) should be enough to get this dismissed.

The best way to avoid this situation is to have all your documents ready when he approaches your vehicle and not to fight the ticket that he's trying to give you. Fight the ticket in court, the more time he spends near your vehicle the greater the chance he'll try to conduct a search. Having your documents ready and refusing to answer the questions forces him to just write the ticket. You cannot be detained indefinitely, and the officer cannot change his reason for the traffic stop. Listen to exactly what he says and how he says it. You can rebut an accusation without arguing the point. It indicates that you know your rights and that this stop is going to result in a lot of paperwork. It also helps greatly to have a clean driving record because we mammals tend to be creatures of habit and no officer is really trying to go to court with trumped up charges against a citizen who knows his rights and has a clean driving record.

here is a link to the laws that govern your traffic stop http://www.teamsheriffracing.com/index. ... Itemid=117

Steve - thanks for the props man, you made my day
Dude, you know your shiznit! I know where I'm coming if I get a tickie for mods ;-)

One question: If you're cited for have a modified exhaust under 27150.2 VC, exactly how is a smagging station qualified to measure sound? Do they even have equipment (let alone know how to use it properly? Do they measure the sound of the stock exhaust vs the modification? That whole deal sounds like a crock.
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Oversteer is better than understeer because you don't see the tree you're hitting.
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Marshall Grice
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Marshall Grice »

Kurt Rahn wrote: One question: If you're cited for have a modified exhaust under 27150.2 VC, exactly how is a smagging station qualified to measure sound? Do they even have equipment (let alone know how to use it properly? Do they measure the sound of the stock exhaust vs the modification? That whole deal sounds like a crock.
the ref station is not a smog station. they're an official DMV inspection station. It just so happens that most people go there for emissions violations.
Bob Beamesderfer
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Re: Pls advice - got pulled over and now need to go to a referee

Post by Bob Beamesderfer »

I know in California you are required to have only two brake lights but apparently all the cars manufactured from 1984 and beyond need to have a third light .
It is required, despite what Mr. Jessup has quoted. California has a section of the vehicle code that says all cars licensed for use on a public highway must comply with all Federal DOT standards. So, yes, you have to have an operating center brake light because your car was made after 1987.

Marcus, are sure that the certification cops need to make field evals on smog equipment isn't from the state Bureau of Auto Repair? That's the one I've always heard about. Fed DOT doesn't deal with Calif. smog regulations and SAE isn't a regulator.
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