Racing Alignment

[Arthur Grant]

Curiosity,
how many of you run a suspension alignment other than the recommended street settings.
a) If you run a race alignment do you set it at the track and go back to street at the end of the weekend.
b) Do you set it at home and go back to street later
c) Do you have the car set up for competition and just leave it that way, street tire wear be hanged (car isn't street driven)
d) Is there something other than the dealers set up?
e) If you run a special competition set up why?

[Dennis Healy]

how about f) aggressive competition alignment not adjusted for the street, tires be hanged
i get the best possible setup for autox, and i have a lot of fun on the street, tires be damned. still have "half" the life after 8 months, if tread depth is to be believed (even though i don't compete on those tires most of the time). all depends on your goals/needs. i want to win. i need to run the same car on the street. i can only blame my driving if i don't win on the course. my street tires don't last as long. c'est la vie

[Bob Beamesderfer]

Curiosity,
how many of you run a suspension alignment other than the recommended street settings.
a) If you run a race alignment do you set it at the track and go back to street at the end of the weekend.
b) Do you set it at home and go back to street later
c) Do you have the car set up for competition and just leave it that way, street tire wear be hanged (car isn't street driven)
d) Is there something other than the dealers set up?
e) If you run a special competition set up why?

Just about everyone.

a: I didn't change mine and I had aggressive settings. Tire life on the Azenis I used for the street on Miata wasn't going to be all that long the way I drove.
b: I had a shop do it to my specs with me in the car; others do it themselves, some check and adjust toe at events. Probably because it can be knocked askew while street driving.
c: That's what I did and I'm sure many others do the same.
d: Dealers? You don't need no stinkin' dealers
e: Yes. Transitions, transitions, transitions!

An alignment for Solo is much more aggressive on toe settings than a track alignment. Both use more aggressive camber settings.

One of the factors that can influence how well a particular model of car does in Stock is how much alignment settings can be changed. A lot of cars have a limited range of camber adjustment without camber plates [not Stock legal].

A good alignment/setup shop is worth its weight in Hoosiers.

[Vincent Wong]

In my STX Prelude, I had the alignment set toward autox/track setup more than street setup. Now with my 335i and S4, I'd like to have them somewhere in between autox and street, however I just don't have time to change them (I do my own alignment, BTW). So I'm now running the alignment setup when they left the factories. I'm starting to like SK classes since I don't have to do anything. Maybe my modding days are over!!!

[Doug Kott]

I just keep my settings where they are, and am overjoyed if I get 8000 miles out of a set. Since my car's not a DD (mostly driven for fun on weekends, errands, trips to the grocery store, 40-mile round trip to see my parents, etc.), I find that the tires wear pretty evenly even with a fair bit o' negative camber....freeway inside edge wear offset by autocross in-a-corner wear.

As previous poster mentioned, if you're in a Stock or SK class, the camber adjustments are limited to what came with the car, and some are far more aggressive than others. In my old Porsche 944 S2, it was possible to get -3 degrees up front with stock suspension! You do pay a bit of a price in the way the car behaves on the street...with my car, the negative camber makes it edgy and a little nervous in a straight line, but it's a squirrelly car to begin with.

--Doug

[Mako Koiwai]

Since we change tires at the event site I adjust our Toe at that time to our competition setting. It's very easy to do on the Vette (not sure how rear toe is adjusted on your C4) ... so why not. It's aggressive Toe that really effects tire wear. Imagine if a tire has just two mm Toe-Out, in one mile it does about 800 revolutions ... which equals 1.6 meters (about 5 feet) of sideways scrub. And 2 mm, or four mm total (both sides) Toe isn't even very aggressive.

Camber alone doesn't produce too much added wear if one is running zero toe.

At some point a lot of folks flip their tires on their rims to even out wear anyway. Tire Rack did tests that showed it makes very little difference running a directional tire backwards (0.1 seconds at best in the wet on a flipped directional tire on a 30 second course). Even Kumho now says it's OK to run their 710 tire on any corner, in any direction, even though the tire has Outside/Inside molded into it's sidewall. (See the Tire Rack Tech Articles)

One of the reasons that we would always want to have our own control of Toe settings on our Vette, is because by progressively increasing the rear Toe-In, we can compensate for rear tire wear, which helps keep the rear planted under corner exit acceleration. Something it looks like your C4 could benefit from.

A lot of folks end up being unhappy with the results from most "regular" garage alignment procedures. Either the techs don't or refuse to follow your more aggressive specs or they're just sloppy. There are a few specialty alignment businesses like WestEnd Alignment that are faultless in their work. I know of drivers that have almost monthly appointments with Darren! After two or three visits myself I learned enough to do it myself. btw. Darren feels that anything more then 1/16th inch total toe in/out is too aggressive for a daily driver. On the other hand, Subaru factory specs are plus or minus 3 mm's (about 1/8th inch)!

So I would say that with your Vette, you should have Camber set to whatever works best (have positive Caster maxed out), have front Toe set to perhaps 2 mm Toe Out, have rear Toe set to about 2 mm Toe-In ... and then add additional rear Toe-In when you change to your R tires, depending on the condition of the tires. Since I believe you change to your R's at home, go ahead and change your Toe at home and don't worry about the drive to and from the event. I would increase rear Toe-In to as much as 3/8th inch total with well worn tires.

All you need is a pair of Toe Plates ... I just use cheap shelfing boards from Home Depot and a steel tape measure, and and adjustable spanner to loosen/tighten the steering arm/toe adjuster arm locking nut and to adjust the arm itself. Mark everything before you make a change so you can go back to your street setting. When adjusting the arm I think in terms of pulling or pushing the end of the wheel/tire in or out that I want to adjust. I can show you at the next event.

Even for the street I wouldn't zero out our toe. Our C5 is squirmy squirrely on Zero Toe, even driving down the fwy, ie. wanders.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

Curiosity,
how many of you run a suspension alignment other than the recommended street settings.
a) If you run a race alignment do you set it at the track and go back to street at the end of the weekend.
b) Do you set it at home and go back to street later
c) Do you have the car set up for competition and just leave it that way, street tire wear be hanged (car isn't street driven)
d) Is there something other than the dealers set up?
e) If you run a special competition set up why?

Set it and forget it. Our current car has been sporting its full "race" alignment since Feb 05', which accounts for 74k miles. I have only seen a minor increase in street tire wear, and this is what some would consider an aggressive alignment. Flipping the tires on the wheels around 12-15k nets us around 30k out of a set.

You start changing for each event and you will screw it up... I have seen many people who do this (including myself), particularly on a Corvette. You forget to change one side, turn it the wrong way, or do it twice because you got distracted. My first year into the sport with my C4 I had the alignment set, and the tie-rods marked at zero for the street, and marked for my race settings. At the end of the season I had it checked on the rack, only to find my street (zero) setting was now measuring 1/2" toe in, and it was not equal side to side.

Set it and forget it. One less thing to do, and one less thing to screw up.

E) because it is faster.

[John Coffey]

Set it and forget it. Our current car has been sporting its full "race" alignment since Feb 05', which accounts for 74k miles. I have only seen a minor increase in street tire wear, and this is what some would consider an aggressive alignment. Flipping the tires on the wheels around 12-15k nets us around 30k out of a set.

That's misleading in a way. Your RX8 has probably one of the best suspensions every installed on a production car. It doesn't need some of the "unusual" suspension alignment changes other cars require to get the tires to work. A strut suspension car will need a lot of initial camber and toe out to make it work well at an autocross. That will help wear the tires out quickly on the street.

So, the real answer is (as always): It depends...

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

That's misleading in a way. Your RX8 has probably one of the best suspensions every installed on a production car. It doesn't need some of the "unusual" suspension alignment changes other cars require to get the tires to work. A strut suspension car will need a lot of initial camber and toe out to make it work well at an autocross. That will help wear the tires out quickly on the street.

So, the real answer is (as always): It depends...

Well I don't know of to many stock class cars that can get excessive camber, regardless of design. I bet we run a lot more camber and toe than you would expect. ;)

[Steve Towers]

On my C5 I pretty much leave it on the autocross settings. Doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference on the street. I drive to events on 710's (including San Diego) and other than being a wee bit darty when going over seams, it's not an issue. BTW - It seems the dartiness is more about the tires than the alignment. Just put new street tires on and the car doesn't move around at all. And pretty quiet, like a real car.

[John Fendel]

Curiosity,
how many of you run a suspension alignment other than the recommended street settings.
a) If you run a race alignment do you set it at the track and go back to street at the end of the weekend.
b) Do you set it at home and go back to street later
c) Do you have the car set up for competition and just leave it that way, street tire wear be hanged (car isn't street driven)
d) Is there something other than the dealers set up?
e) If you run a special competition set up why?

I have my own race alignment reset at a local shop every time I buy new V710's (about once per year) and leave it alone. The car is not a daily driver, but I do drive it to and from all the local events and an occasional show. I change from street rubber to race rubber at the event, although sometimes I will drive home on the race rubber and change later. I run lots of negative camber, a small amount of toe out and mild caster. The street tires age out way before they wear out. I run this setup because it is the only way to get these old cars to handle. The factory suspension design has a lot of camber gain with suspension travel, so it takes a lot of initial negative camber to make the tires wear evenly under heavy cornering loads.

[Tom Phillips]

Art -
Per our conversation last Saturday, lowering the rear to the maximum the spring bolts will allow, changing the rear camber to 1.75* -2.00* with 1/16" toe in each side and the front to the maximum the suspension will allow, which should be between .75* to 1.25* (keeping both sides the same) and 1/8" toe out each side should give you much improved handling.
Any of the A/S C4 Champs could chime in here to confirm/alter/deny the above settings. But I think it's a great starting place, especially since you claim to be a bit of a lead foot coming out of turns. It can always change to coincide with driver style.

Tom

[Michael Wood]

That's misleading in a way. Your RX8 has probably one of the best suspensions every installed on a production car. It doesn't need some of the "unusual" suspension alignment changes other cars require to get the tires to work. A strut suspension car will need a lot of initial camber and toe out to make it work well at an autocross. That will help wear the tires out quickly on the street.

So, the real answer is (as always): It depends...

Well I don't know of to many stock class cars that can get excessive camber, regardless of design. I bet we run a lot more camber and toe than you would expect. ;)

Camber, yes, but toe? I can't remember the final settings we arrived at on the RX8, but I don't think front toe out was even 1/8" and rear toe was (iirc) zero??

However, we did have -1.8 front/-1.2 rear camber.

Like Mako pointed out, it is excessive toe that kills tires. If you are running a car that requires crazy toe settings to get it to turn (i.e. FWD) or really feel the need for "increased turn in" resulting from, imho, too much front toe out...yeah, you'll go through tires faster than you'd like.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

Camber, yes, but toe? I can't remember the final settings we arrived at on the RX8, but I don't think front toe out was even 1/8" and rear toe was (iirc) zero??

Those may have been your settings. ;)

[John Stimson]

Don't think that if you run street tires, the factory alignment is appropriate for autocrossing. Even assuming that the car left the factory with close the the nominal values and everything was symmetric, you will almost certainly be better off with more negative camber, especially on the front wheels. Even with street tires.

Toe is what kills tires. With close to zero toe, even high camber does not wear tires very fast. For autocross, you usually want less toe-in than the manufacturer specifies, anyway -- the main reason you would want toe-in is for stability on the road.

[Arthur Grant]

Whats the effect or loss of performance if you set the camber in but leave toe stock?

[Mako Koiwai]

Our C5 turns in so well that I've started to use less toe out up front. Remember that often Zero static toe will give you some toe-out once the car is under way. Camber is going to be more important then toe-out up front, but there is no reason not to have a bit of toe-out in front. 1/16th total toe out won't hurt your tire wear very much and is just enough to make sure your alignment guy at least doesn't dial in toe-in!

Your alignment setting is going to be a compromise anyway ... ideally you would have a bit more neg. camber for El Toro with it's higher grip. You would have a bit more neg. camber if your using softer sidewalled Hoosiers over 710's.

As Tom B and Gary T will tell you ... your rear toe-in settings should increase as your tire wears ... measured by how loose your Vette is under corner exit acceleration.

If you're suffering snap over steer, you probably need more rear neg camber ... per Toby.

So unless you're Isley ... your alignment is always going to be a compromise.

Get yourself a needle pyrometer. Ideally your tire tread should be evenly warm side to side and if your car is well set-up, front to back, ie. the work load is being evenly distributed. In practice, the inside of your tires will tend to be around 10 degrees warmer ... with the added negative camber (and toe-out alignment), the inside edge of the inside tire is getting dragged across the corner. Depending on your car and driving style, one set of tires will be warmer ... often the front end doing steering, cornering plus carrying the engine weight. And of course the tires on the outside of the course will get more of a work out. If you aren't evening out your tire wear by doing Practice and Race, you will often want to rotate your tires side to side.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

As Tom B and Gary T will tell you ... your rear toe-in settings should increase as your tire wears ... measured by how loose your Vette is under corner exit acceleration.

If you're suffering snap over steer, you probably need more rear neg camber ... per Toby.

So unless you're Isley ... your alignment is always going to be a compromise.

Or don't run rags. Once the cars handling goes away don't chase the setup, change the tires.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

For autocross, you usually want less toe-in than the manufacturer specifies, anyway -- the main reason you would want toe-in is for stability on the road.

That's the first time I've heard that.

[Mako Koiwai]

The original NSX's had massive rear toe-in ... something like 1/2 inch ... tires lasted around 4,000 miles! The idea was to make them more planted. I believe they modified the rear suspension in later models?

If I set our Z06 rear toe to zero, the car feels squirrely even on the streets ... wanders on the FWY.

[Michael Wood]

The C5 gets a fair amount of bushing deflection and toe out on squat, so the way to get them to work off corner/on power is toe in. They also are super sensitive to rear ride height and overall rake, in my experience.

Factory toe in on the front is to promote straight line stability. Think about the forces being exerted as you drive down the road and think about which direction would inspire the steering wheel to stay straight...like, divergent vs. self canceling...at least that's my take on it.

As far as Isley's alignment, all his jackets aside, my car was proven to be just as quick...just not usually two days in a row...unless Matthew was driving it