Chris Autox wrote:Kind of board with the same thing. It's just the shape of the lot that causes the "didn't we do this last year" kind of course. Not any ones fault other than possibly a lack of imagination.
That's valid. While setting up a recent course at QC, a long time member pointed out "there's not a single element available on this lot that hasn't been done before". It's not just the shape of the lot though. Much like Forbes Field, there's just so much damage that must be avoided that we're limited to running thru the available corridors.
Now taken as a challenge I have no doubt that something different could be done. It would just require time, stubbornness and less "help".
There are certain things you could do on the west lot at Qualcomm, but if you did them, other people would bitch about the way the course flowed, lack of certain elements, etc. The reality is, with the shape, position of the hard obstacles, the drainage ditch, SCCA restrictions and safety issues, and locations of surface break ups... there are limitations to what you can do as a course designer. It is not a problem with a lack of imagination in my opinion. If we had a large square with a good surface and no light poles or k-rails... the course would be different.
And unfortunately, the city will not spend much money on the lot since the major tenant has threatened to leave soon (in which case the entire lot goes away).
After a while, it does feel a lot like previous events.
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Randy Chase wrote:...After a while, it does feel a lot like previous events.
I know I don't run down there nearly as much as I used to, but even though the course seem so alike (pin turn in far corner, chicanes going up the hill, etc.) I LOVE running the Tour there! I LOVE the camber/off camber-ness of the lot! :heyes: I'll be very sad when we lose that lot.
Last edited by Bill Schenker on Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Oh, I agree. I don't think most people in San Diego really appreciate the lot. It has many positives. It is centrally located and not in a bad part of town. Close enough to the beach to not get too hot. Easily reached by trolley for travelers. Lots of other things to do and see in San Diego. Easy to get food and services (in case for example, you need a fuel injector o-ring on a Sunday morning).
And I don't mind the seeming sameness. The reality is that even minor changes require different lines, so it is all good. Truth is, after so many years doing this, a lot of events in many areas of the country start to seem the same to me. And often being different does not mean better.
But I can see the criticism, but there is really not much we can do about it. At least not in my opinion, without causing other issues. More people will like a similar course than would like being daring and different.
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I have a lot of ideas for the San Diego lot in regards to course design. The lot has it's restrictions it's just many of the course designers don't spend the time to try something new as it will take to long to figure out. Most of the courses are setup the same because of the ease of repeating said courses. As stated before, there tend to be too many chefs in the kitchen. I want to design next years sd tour if they let me.
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Bill Martin wrote:Something for you to look forward to: When you get to my age, I can't remember past last week anyway, so it's all new.
Bill
That is not funny!!!! I can't remember last month, last week, yesterday, and most of today, but I can remember a course that we ran at Hollywood Bowl.
Jonathan Lugod wrote:I have a lot of ideas for the San Diego lot in regards to course design. The lot has it's restrictions it's just many of the course designers don't spend the time to try something new as it will take to long to figure out. Most of the courses are setup the same because of the ease of repeating said courses. As stated before, there tend to be too many chefs in the kitchen. I want to design next years sd tour if they let me.
The number of chefs depends on the club putting it on and it certainly makes the process difficult. When I used to design a lot of the courses for one club, it drove me nuts.
I would love to see your effort and how it works out. Why not try it before the Tour though?
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Randy, I did two courses this year (first scnax event) and another one in may I think in sd. I'm looking into doing the first scnax one again beginning of next year if no one else wants it. I enjoy course designing, it's a whole different challenge.
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Robert Puertas wrote:When was the Pro at Crow's Landing?
Ah, Crows Landing! The wild west of AutoX.
Crow' s Landing was the birth place of the American Autocross Series. The late Larry Park created the series so he could stretch the legs of his 600+ hp BP Corvette(and he could drive too). I was a newbie and entered the second event of this series and I still remember that day/those runs. Lap times were in the 90 second range and the course had some typical autocross elements such as a slalom and a 180 degree corner-the scale was just LARGER. There was a 5-cone slalom and I caught a glimpse of my RX3' s speedo on the 4th cone swinging past 100 mph! The 180 degree corner followed . This particular 180 started on one runway, apexed in the middle of the access road connecting to the next runway and finished at other runway- I remember something around 80 through that. Later, Larry said something about an estimated 130 through the slalom in his BP car. Fun times.
Robert Puertas wrote:When was the Pro at Crow's Landing?
Ah, Crows Landing! The wild west of AutoX.
Crow' s Landing was the birth place of the American Autocross Series. The late Larry Park created the series so he could stretch the legs of his 600+ hp BP Corvette(and he could drive too). I was a newbie and entered the second event of this series and I still remember that day/those runs. Lap times were in the 90 second range and the course had some typical autocross elements such as a slalom and a 180 degree corner-the scale was just LARGER. There was a 5-cone slalom and I caught a glimpse of my RX3' s speedo on the 4th cone swinging past 100 mph! The 180 degree corner followed . This particular 180 started on one runway, apexed in the middle of the access road connecting to the next runway and finished at other runway- I remember something around 80 through that. Later, Larry said something about an estimated 130 through the slalom in his BP car. Fun times.
I'll have to get Jesus (Villareal) on this thread...he can tell some outrageous stories about the early days of AAS. Those guys were crazy...actually, ARE crazy, as most of 'em seem to be pretty much the same...just older ;)
Even just five years ago, we were hitting over 100mph at the Larry Park Memorial event at Atwater. Man, I miss that place...I ran there a bunch my first year autocrossing (2005) and just kinda figured that it was a "normal" site..."you don't know what you got, till its gone"
Jonathan Lugod wrote:I have a lot of ideas for the San Diego lot in regards to course design. The lot has it's restrictions it's just many of the course designers don't spend the time to try something new as it will take to long to figure out. Most of the courses are setup the same because of the ease of repeating said courses. As stated before, there tend to be too many chefs in the kitchen. I want to design next years sd tour if they let me.
Be careful. Bill Maritn is right about all the limitations of the site. If you do design a course for the tour, don't get sucked into doing to much and making corners that are to tight just for the sake of making an element in a space that is to small to accomodate it. Better to simply make the course shorter in that case.
Last edited by Chris Autox on Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chris Autox wrote:Be careful. Bill Maritn is right about all the limitations of the site. If you do design a course for the tour, don't get sucked into doing to much and making corners that are to tight just for the sake of making an element is a space that is to small to accomodate it.
Robert Puertas wrote:When was the Pro at Crow's Landing?
Ah, Crows Landing! The wild west of AutoX.
Crow' s Landing was the birth place of the American Autocross Series. The late Larry Park created the series so he could stretch the legs of his 600+ hp BP Corvette(and he could drive too). I was a newbie and entered the second event of this series and I still remember that day/those runs. Lap times were in the 90 second range and the course had some typical autocross elements such as a slalom and a 180 degree corner-the scale was just LARGER. There was a 5-cone slalom and I caught a glimpse of my RX3' s speedo on the 4th cone swinging past 100 mph! The 180 degree corner followed . This particular 180 started on one runway, apexed in the middle of the access road connecting to the next runway and finished at other runway- I remember something around 80 through that. Later, Larry said something about an estimated 130 through the slalom in his BP car. Fun times.
I remember that event. The thing I remember most was the slalom that you entered in 3rd gear and shifted to 4th about 2 cones into it. You held it wide open for 3 more cones and then you broke hard, downshifted to third for the right hander at the end and went thru the finish lights in 3rd gear. Going past the last slalom cone in a four wheel drift was exciting. Had to really slow down those hands to pull it off.
Jonathan Lugod wrote:I have a lot of ideas for the San Diego lot in regards to course design. The lot has it's restrictions it's just many of the course designers don't spend the time to try something new as it will take to long to figure out. Most of the courses are setup the same because of the ease of repeating said courses. As stated before, there tend to be too many chefs in the kitchen. I want to design next years sd tour if they let me.
Be careful. Bill Maritn is right about all the limitations of the site. If you do design a course for the tour, don't get sucked into doing to much and making corners that are to tight just for the sake of making an element in a space that is to small to accomodate it. Better to simply make the course shorter in that case.
Yep. That was my point. I have seen clubs in SD trying to do something different and most of the time it does not work as well. Still, I applaud the effort and maybe we can figure out something new with some young designers like Jonathan.
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Michael Wood wrote:Man, I miss that place...I ran there a bunch my first year autocrossing (2005) and just kinda figured that it was a "normal" site..."you don't know what you got, till its gone"
Exactly my point about San Diego for many of the locals. They run there and think this is a normal site.
Separate subject, but sites everywhere are getting more rare. I just drove by a small lot that was used for police driving training and rented out to drifters and noticed just this morning that the lot is now covered in poles every 20'.
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Jonathan Lugod wrote:Randy, I did two courses this year (first scnax event) and another one in may I think in sd. I'm looking into doing the first scnax one again beginning of next year if no one else wants it. I enjoy course designing, it's a whole different challenge.
What dates? The CSCC maps are pretty much all on-line. We could look at yours.
