Which SK1 car to get

[Steve Ekstrand]

I'm going against the theory for next year because I'll be running an almost 2-ton car in SK1.

BMW 335i coupe weighs 3571 lbs, E46 M3 - 3415 lbs. Looking at the points, you were doing quite well in SK1, Vincent . If you don't mind, can you give me some first-hand impressions on how your car feels at the autocross? Does it understeer too much? Can you get the power down? The last 3-series I had was an E36 328i, which had good steering feel, great brakes, good torque, but too much leaning in corners and some understeer.

I ran my 335 Coupe on OEM runflats. It wasn't a particularly gratifying experience though it does have TORQUE to spare. It would surely be better on the oversize star specs on it now. But I was several seconds slower than my ST civic. If I only had that car I'd run it for sure. But having a choice I would never consider that car with autox as the prime consideration. A DS pax will make the car more competitive locally. But the GS SRT-4 ACR will slaughter it. And I'm pretty sure I could beat the bimmer in a CooperS which I've also taken a lot of laps in.

[Jack Tsou]

I apologize if the topic doesn't belong to this forum. I have a Honda Fit for daily driving and I'm looking for some opinions on what fun car to get for an autocross/weekend car. I don't like changing tires before the event, so I guess my best choice would be the street tire class. I am interested in the following:

Honda S2000 (BS) - I test drove it and loved the balance, gearbox, lightness, engine at high rpm. The downside is that it is noisy and not practical for a longer trip.
C6 Corvette(BS?) - very impressive acceleration, but feels big and unwieldy, roof top squeaks. However probably more comfortable than S2000 on a longer trip
E46 BMW M3 (BS) - not so much fun in terms of balance and handling, a little more subdued, but more comfortable, more power than S2000
E92 BMW 335i (FS) - haven't driven one yet, but it should have similar straight-line speed to M3, possibly better index (FS) when running in SK1, but no LSD

So among these cars, which one would you recommend for SK1 in terms of competitiveness, setup, fun, tire wear, etc? Or maybe something else?

Thanks,

Mihail

S2000... Evo 9 or STi.
No Sk2? Lots of choices that will fit your criteria...

[Robert Puertas]

With the new PAX numbers, I'd think a HS Mini would be the way to go for SK2.
Boring, but competitive...

The ES 1.8 Miata or MR2 would both be good choices.


A '99 911 would be an interesting choice for AS SK1...

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

I apologize if the topic doesn't belong to this forum. I have a Honda Fit for daily driving and I'm looking for some opinions on what fun car to get for an autocross/weekend car. I don't like changing tires before the event, so I guess my best choice would be the street tire class. I am interested in the following:

Honda S2000 (BS) - I test drove it and loved the balance, gearbox, lightness, engine at high rpm. The downside is that it is noisy and not practical for a longer trip.
C6 Corvette(BS?) - very impressive acceleration, but feels big and unwieldy, roof top squeaks. However probably more comfortable than S2000 on a longer trip
E46 BMW M3 (BS) - not so much fun in terms of balance and handling, a little more subdued, but more comfortable, more power than S2000
E92 BMW 335i (FS) - haven't driven one yet, but it should have similar straight-line speed to M3, possibly better index (FS) when running in SK1, but no LSD

So among these cars, which one would you recommend for SK1 in terms of competitiveness, setup, fun, tire wear, etc? Or maybe something else?

Thanks,

Mihail

The C6 Corvette is an SS car... Did you mean C4?

Best choice I see on that list if the S2K. The rest are just to heavy and have to much power to effectively use 140 tires.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

A '99 911 would be an interesting choice for AS SK1...

Did KJ bring that thing out yet?

[Michael Oest]

Actually The 2008 M3 is the perfect family car/SK1 car. It can carry the whole family and luggage on long trips and can be competitive locally in SK1. Just put some Star specs on 265f,275r, change alinment and your on your way! I'm Biased though. Thats my choice but it cost a little more $. I just sold mine, so I'll be happy to recommend it. Its not nationally compettitive in AS though.

The S2000 is probably the best car that you can do anything with and can run many National classes competitively. (BS, STR, SK1, etc.)

[Mihail Milkov]

Thanks to all for the very useful advice. I'm especially honored to have a Road and Track editor reply to my topic
I'm also gravitating towards the S2000 as it seems to be better suited to autocross than the others mentioned. Besides I can get a relatively new and low-mileage S2000 for less than an E46 M3, C6 Corvette, 335i or Elise. Of course the S2000 does not make a good highway cruiser (not better than my Fit), but I guess it's almost impossible to combine highway comfort with autocross prowess.
Hope to make my purchase early next year and get my a** to the next event

[Vincent Wong]

I'm going against the theory for next year because I'll be running an almost 2-ton car in SK1.

BMW 335i coupe weighs 3571 lbs, E46 M3 - 3415 lbs. Looking at the points, you were doing quite well in SK1, Vincent . If you don't mind, can you give me some first-hand impressions on how your car feels at the autocross? Does it understeer too much? Can you get the power down? The last 3-series I had was an E36 328i, which had good steering feel, great brakes, good torque, but too much leaning in corners and some understeer.

We're fortunate enough to have decent size lots in our region, and our course designers have been nice to not set up a super tight course (note to all course designers, I'm not suggesting you should, let's keep it the way it is now ). Having said that, the E92 335i handles quite good. The steering feels responsive enough, but like Steve said, the car does understeer. I started out with the OEM Michelin RFTs, and I was using low tire pressures then. I corded those in 7k miles (including 5 autox and 2 track events). I've since switched to Dunlop Direzza Star Spec, but I increased the front size from the factory 225/40 to 235/40, and kept the rear at factory 255/35 size. I've also increased the tire pressures by quite a bit. Now I can get more events out of the tires, and the car does not understeer as much. Brakes are good for autox purpose, and plenty of torque indeed. Sometimes I had to watch for my throttle input, otherwise I would be hanging the tail out on corner exits. My 335i has the e-diff (supposedly according to info from the forums) so it doesn't just spin the inside rear wheel. I haven't driven the earlier E9x 335i (which didn't have the e-diff), so I can't compare. Overall, I think the car handles great in stock form. Oh...did I mention that my alignment is still OEM spec? I wonder how the car will handle once I change my alignment to a more autox-like setup.

In regards to my 2-ton comment, I meant my B8 S4 which weighs about 4000 lbs, and I'll be driving that next year in SK1-BS.

[Ron Tsumura]

One of the first things the S2000 needs is a front bar. A CR bar costs about $100. Adjustable bars cost about $1000. }:)

[KJ Christopher]

A '99 911 would be an interesting choice for AS SK1...

Did KJ bring that thing out yet?

So tempting.... Maybe December.

[Mihail Milkov]

Definitely don't get the Boxster. }:)

If going the Porsche route, I was thinking of a used Cayman S rather than a Boxster. But then I got scared after reading about engine failures on Planet 9 and elsewhere. See, for example,
http://www.planet-9.com/cayman-boxster- ... ilure.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/1 ... -failures/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I know the internet blows things out of proportion, but still...
Hope your engine is doing fine, Tom

[Michael Wood]

I agree with what many have said...of your choices, the S2000 would be the most fun autocross car on street tires.

But, I wouldn't rule out the Boxster/Cayman. However, for street tire index class, I'd go with a 2000-2004 Boxster (non S). CS index isn't near as tough as it should be, mid engine helps a bunch on streets and the car is fairly light. Add in great daily driverability (yes, I made that word up) and it seems like it would be a good bet.

I don't know about the newer cars, but I personally know of a good number of 986's that have been autocrossed for years with no mechanical issues.

As a matter of fact, I've been keeping an eye out for the "right" Boxster to use as a daily driver and local street tire index car.

[Joey Schilling]

I will secretly sell you my dad's AP1 S2k, he really really wants a CR to run next year. Oh wait thats me

[Rad_ Delgado_]

Mihail,

I ran autocrosses in 2 friend's E46 M3, that car is a pig, it won't turn at all, not fun, but great daily driver. It needs CSP preparation to be fun.

I had a 335i Sport Package 6-speed manual for 2 years, then a 2008 M3 7speed for 2 years, I had both for about a year. The 335i is boring, not fun at all, the car needs a LSD urgent, it's painful. The M3 is perfect as a daily driver, and competitive in Sk1 locally. I ran the M3 once on the stock tires (PS2) and stock everything, and I was 2 secs behind McWho in the C4 and Kumhos, but this M3 is a $45k car in the used market, and your list has $15k-$30k cars.

I had 2 S2000, AP1 and AP2, loved them, I want another one (actually I want Uyeda's one but Gary has dibs on it, I have 2nd dibs Jason!!!!). The car is a little annoying on long trips.

I would highly recommend you a 2007 Cayman S. Find one out of a lease with the extended warranty, 6 years or 100,000 miles will get you up to 2013. Buy a car produced on or after March-2007, as Porsche made changes to the engine to fix the problems in the earlier versions. Find one with PASM (Porsche active suspension), so you can use a soft setting for public roads, and track setting for autoX/track. These cars can be found for $30k or less. It is competitive in AS, but it is more fun than the S2000 on a racetrack or Canyon road due to the 300Hp and torque from a 3.4. If possible, never buy a Porsche out of warranty. The Bose audio system is free on the used market, adds 20 lbs (negligible), but sound fairly decent compared to the S2K stereo.

A set of wheels for the Cayman S from OZ costs $1200, and for tires you run the same ones Hi Ly is running. This cars has very good brakes. For $30k, few cars are more fun as a complete package (daily driver, long trips, track and autoX).

[Giovanni Jaramillo]

I ran autocrosses in 2 friend's E46 M3, that car is a pig, it won't turn at all, not fun, but great daily driver. It needs CSP preparation to be fun.

I can attest being an owner of the E46 M3. But correction...you mean BSP preparation as it (E46 M3) got moved down from A-Stock to B-Stock to make room for the E9x (0,2,3) M3? The E36 M3 got moved from B-Stock to C-Stock thus CSP preparation and THAT car is well...THE M chassis to have. Look at Mike Simanyi's E36 M3 (from B-Stock to STU trim to BSP to monster SM car).

The M3 is perfect as a daily driver, and competitive in Sk1 locally. I ran the M3 once on the stock tires (PS2) and stock everything, and I was 2 secs behind McWho in the C4 and Kumhos, but this M3 is a $45k car in the used market, and your list has $15k-$30k cars.

If you're referring to the E90, E92, E93 M3s then yes it's a $45k but if you're referring to the E46, then it definitely is in Mihail's price range (more towards the lower part) and competitive in SK1 with the B-Stock index.

[Mihail Milkov]

Mihail,

I ran autocrosses in 2 friend's E46 M3, that car is a pig, it won't turn at all, not fun, but great daily driver. It needs CSP preparation to be fun.

I had a 335i Sport Package 6-speed manual for 2 years, then a 2008 M3 7speed for 2 years, I had both for about a year. The 335i is boring, not fun at all, the car needs a LSD urgent, it's painful. The M3 is perfect as a daily driver, and competitive in Sk1 locally. I ran the M3 once on the stock tires (PS2) and stock everything, and I was 2 secs behind McWho in the C4 and Kumhos, but this M3 is a $45k car in the used market, and your list has $15k-$30k cars.

I had 2 S2000, AP1 and AP2, loved them, I want another one (actually I want Uyeda's one but Gary has dibs on it, I have 2nd dibs Jason!!!!). The car is a little annoying on long trips.

I would highly recommend you a 2007 Cayman S. Find one out of a lease with the extended warranty, 6 years or 100,000 miles will get you up to 2013. Buy a car produced on or after March-2007, as Porsche made changes to the engine to fix the problems in the earlier versions. Find one with PASM (Porsche active suspension), so you can use a soft setting for public roads, and track setting for autoX/track. These cars can be found for $30k or less. It is competitive in AS, but it is more fun than the S2000 on a racetrack or Canyon road due to the 300Hp and torque from a 3.4. If possible, never buy a Porsche out of warranty. The Bose audio system is free on the used market, adds 20 lbs (negligible), but sound fairly decent compared to the S2K stereo.

A set of wheels for the Cayman S from OZ costs $1200, and for tires you run the same ones Hi Ly is running. This cars has very good brakes. For $30k, few cars are more fun as a complete package (daily driver, long trips, track and autoX).

Thanks for the very informative post and your first-hand driving impressions of the E46 M3, E92 335i and E92 M3. You are right, the E92 M3 is out of my price range.
No doubt the Cayman S is a great driver's car and good for multiple things. I heed your advice never to buy a Porsche out of warranty (that ought to say something about this fabled marque's reliability!), but I see a problem. Even if I get a 2007 Cayman S with 6 years of warranty, the warranty will expire in 2013, i.e. in about 2 years from now. Then what? Another aspect to consider is that the S2000 should be fairly easy to work on as the engine is easily accessible. I am not so sure how easy it is to do maintenance and repair on the Porsche.

[KJ Christopher]

I can attest being an owner of the E46 M3. But correction...you mean BSP preparation as it (E46 M3) got moved down from A-Stock to B-Stock to make room for the E9x (0,2,3) M3? The E36 M3 got moved from B-Stock to C-Stock thus CSP preparation and THAT car is well...THE M chassis to have. Look at Mike Simanyi's E36 M3 (from B-Stock to STU trim to BSP to monster SM car).

While you are correct that the E46 M3 is a BSP car, that classification isn't because the car is in B Stock. (How would you then explain the C4 Corvette, which was BSP in 2009.) It is in BSP because it is listed on page 174 of the 2010 rule book.

[Giovanni Jaramillo]

I can attest being an owner of the E46 M3. But correction...you mean BSP preparation as it (E46 M3) got moved down from A-Stock to B-Stock to make room for the E9x (0,2,3) M3? The E36 M3 got moved from B-Stock to C-Stock thus CSP preparation and THAT car is well...THE M chassis to have. Look at Mike Simanyi's E36 M3 (from B-Stock to STU trim to BSP to monster SM car).

While you are correct that the E46 M3 is a BSP car, that classification isn't because the car is in B Stock. (How would you then explain the C4 Corvette, which was BSP in 2009.) It is in BSP because it is listed on page 174 of the 2010 rule book.

True but I did do a double check on the rules in the PDF online to confirm as I know sometimes the stock classification with same letter doesn't necessarily correspond with it's Street Prepared classification.

[Steve Ekstrand]

True but I did do a double check on the rules in the PDF online to confirm as I know sometimes the stock classification with same letter doesn't necessarily correspond with it's Street Prepared classification.

Not sometimes. There is NO connection whatsoever, ever. Its a coincidence only.

[Giovanni Jaramillo]

True but I did do a double check on the rules in the PDF online to confirm as I know sometimes the stock classification with same letter doesn't necessarily correspond with it's Street Prepared classification.

Not sometimes. There is NO connection whatsoever, ever. Its a coincidence only.

I don't believe in coincidences....it's all a conspiracy.....where are the black helicopters?

[Rad_ Delgado_]

The reason I say don't buy a newer Porsche out of warranty is the price of parts. Most of the defects are found in the 1st two years of ownership, but this is valid only when people drive these cars, and most people don't, they just have them a trophy cars (yes, a Cayman), so the mileage is too low and the car has not been driven enough.

Cayman is very easy to work with, despite being a mid-engine. Fiat, not so much.

They are fairly reliable cars, but nothing close to the S2000, this Honda is a work horse, impossible to destroy with use, bulletproof.

The Cayman S has lots of storage space, it has 2 trunks, and they are both big. Many tests have claimed the Cayman to be a great handling chassis, and it is. S2000 bites at the limit, Cayman doesn't.

p.s. E46 M3, not competitive in ASP (it was there), or BSP or CSP. Dead horse.

[Mihail Milkov]

While we are discussing Porsche Cayman and Boxster in relation to autocross, I thought I'd ask: why are there many more Corvettes than Boxsters and Caymans in autocross? As far as prices go a 06 Cayman S is similarly priced to an 06 C6 Corvette, while Boxsters, particularly older ones, can be had for much less. So price alone can't explain the difference in popularity. Is there a problem with Porsche reliability particularly in autocrossing / racing ? Or is it that Corvettes are more favorably classed / more suitable to autocrossing than Porsches? If Porsche Boxtster / Cayman have such good handling, balance, brakes, etc. as the magazines say, then one would expect them to be more commonly seen in autocross, no?

[Kristoffer Gjevre]

I have a friend at work with a Cayman that does autox all the time... at the Porsche events...

I keep telling him to come out our events and and he has not so far, and he does the same to me with the same result...

[Darren Cole]

I would say the S2000 too - with CR bar. I have one (had a WRX in SK2 before that). I take it to work sometimes (1 hour drive) and it's fine. A Cayman S is probably the best mix for the handling and cruising ability. I think the S2000 will cost you less though (total ownership cost)! I've wanted to try leasetrader.com to pick up a Cayman S for a year or so and not have to worry about reliability. Still Pricey!!

[James Yom]

Um, does it have to be a SK1 car? Reading your criteria, (weekend/track car, street tires, 15-30k), KJ Cristopher's STX RX-8 sounds PERFECT for what you're looking for. Street tires, competitive, fun to drive, and its at the BOTTOM of your price range! Plus it's in a bonafide class!