HStock authorization

[Jesus Saucedo]

Greetings,

I read the rule book several times in the past. I went through it again, since I'm planning on a class change. I'm planning on a return to H Stock in the Yaris.

The rules call for wheel size to be the same as stock (or optional wheels as avail for different models) and offset to + or - 0.25" of stock. Great. They also mention that I can run slightly different dimensions, if I have prior approval of the competitors in the class.

First question I have: My model came with steelies at 15x6. I'm not concerned with the offset, as what I want to get are within the rules. However, the wheels I'm looking at are Kosei sized at 14x6. Would it be okay to run these without getting approval of the class?

Second question: If I DO need approval, how do I go about getting it?

I think I've gotten better as a driver, but still don't think the yaris and I would be a threat to the class. But, you never know. ;)

Thanks fellas (and ladies if they chime in)

[Craig Naylor]

You've asked more questions than you think.

To start with I assume by other model, you actually mean trim level. You can't run a Camry (another Toyota model) rim, on your Yaris.

Other wheel sizes, you can't just pick another size the car may have come with. You must change everything to match the trim level or package that came with the option you want. In other words, if X size was not on your car, and only came with leather seat package, then you need the leather seat package too.

No it is not in the rules that you can change something, "If you competitors agree". That said, maybe they won't complain if your loosing, but start winning, and I assure you minds change. Plus, who are you competitors, do you know who is going to show at every event? Did someone just come down from SFR, or over from Phoenix? You ready to either upset them for having a cheater car... and make them the bad guy, because you didn't want to play by the rules? Just food for thought.

Yes your allowed =/- 1/4" in offset.

[George Gage]

Jesus,

I'd love to see you in HS. A decent field is forming. I'll be there most, if not all, of this year in my Nissan Versa. There's another guy named Matt currently running street tires too. I haven't yet had time to upgrade to r-compounds but I will be soon and I'm looking at the same wheel issues that you are. To be safe, and to avoid provoking the ire of the others in the class, I'm thinking of first running on stock rims (15 x 5.5). Later I'd like to get some super light rims of that same size and continue to run HStock.

If anyone knows where to get LIGHT 15x5s, (bolt pattern currently under investigation), I'd love to know.

Hope to see you out there.

GGage

[John Stimson]

George: I think that the MINI Cooper "phone dial" wheels are super light 15x5.5" 4x100 bolt pattern wheels. It's going to be tough to find an aftermarket 15x5.5" wheel. Most manufacturers start at 15x6.5" and get wider from there. If you want a narrower wheel, you would be looking at a high end wheel made specifically for racers that feel they absolutely must have a lighter wheel in a stock size regardless of cost.

Jesus: while it is true that class rules are enforced by the competitors themselves, that means that you would have to convince every competitor at each event not to protest you over the wheel size variance. If you could to that, then nobody outside your class could protest you for it. Individual regions are also allowed to create or alter classes to meet local needs, but I seriously doubt that CSCC would make an official rule change for this scenario.

Craig is correct that the only wheels you can run are the size that came with the specific option package that you own. If the QZ trim level came with 14" wheels but 15" wheels were an independent line item on the factory order form, then you could run a QZ with either size wheel. If the JP trim level came only with 16" wheels, then you could not run 14" or 15" wheels on a JP, nor could you run 16" wheels on a QZ.

[Jayson Woodruff]

I'm all for regional flexibility, but this one is a slipperly slope.

We're not talking about changing your dash light color here, wheel size in stock class is a CRITICAL restriction. Whole cars are often thrown away because of wheel size restricitions.

I know the idea of changing diameter doesn't seem like much of an advantage, but you need to think of it globally. If you're allowed to change from 15 to 14, that opens up a whole lot more options to you on tires, rims and effective gear ratios that otherwise wouldn't be availible. And even if that doesn't currently advance you, what about in 2years when some low profile stick 14" tire does come out? Also, what about the next guy who sees the change your making would benifit his car greatly (say move from 18 to a 17" tire).

Basically if someone asked me this question, I'd say no.

Jay W

[John Stimson]

Just as a practical consideration, using 14" wheels severely limits your options for a competition-worthy tire, especially if you want to run on street tires. 15"x6" is a very common OE size. Regardless of bolt pattern, there are plenty of options for you to get inexpensive wheels that are a lot lighter than steel.

[Craig Naylor]

...class rules are enforced by the competitors themselves, ...convince every competitor at each event not to protest... If you could to that, then nobody outside your class could protest you for it.

While very unlikely, a protest can be placed by ANYONE. Nowhere in the rule book does it say it must be by a fellow class competitor. I have seen protests placed by non class competitors in SD (it's been 10 yrs or so), to stop slippery slope issues in another class becoming a problem in their class, based on the if they can I can thought of one of the protesters class competitors.

I believe there was a instance some years ago at a National Tour/Pro event where a person volunteered their car to be protested, to force a rule clarification that effected a group of classes (ST, Stock, SP etc, can't recall which one at the moment).

[John Stimson]

Craig, please read section 8.3 of the Solo Rules and come back and let me know what it says. (I'll concede that I have to add the chief steward to the list of people you'd have to convince not to protest you, although I don't think it would be a breach of ethics not to notify the chief steward of the nonstandard wheel size).

[Jesus Saucedo]

Craig My gf (Xochilt) sends a "hello" to you and Marie.

George: I started autoX in HS and ran there for a few events until I added springs, CAI, Anti-roll bar, and switched to CST. Then I ran my CRX in other classes. My gf is what's bringing me back to HS. And I'm coming back stronger ;) I'm glad to see a Versa out there, and look forward to running with you. As for those super light wheels, they are expensive. I believe Volk TE37s are made in that size, as are the CE28s. Then there's custom. hehe

Craig, John, Jay: Thank you all for your input. It has definitely helped me understand and realize the rules, and the potential drawbacks to what I had been considering. You guys made some good points and I will stick to the rules, "to the T" and not get anyone upset, or make them the bad guy ;)
My main reason for the original questions was for me to save money. I highly doubt, as I'm sure many would agree, that the yaris would be a contender for the top spots. But, I'd still like to try. And if I could potentially save hundreds by buying things in the 14" size, then why not? But whatever to that. I'll stick to the stock size of my steelies as they came from the factory at 15x6. I'll just have to save more

jay: You don't need to change the wheel diameter to change the effective gear ratio, etc. It's my understanding that in Stock class, tire size is fairly open so as long as it fits the wheel and is within the fender (that's just the jist of it). I'm not exactly limited to running a 185, 195, or a 205 size, right?


Well, all in all, I won't be pushing anything on this matter. I'll stick to the rules, and make life simple....just more expensive.

Thank you all for the input. It's very appreciated and it's great that I can have my questions answered BEFORE i make some decisions!

[Q V]

jay: You don't need to change the wheel diameter to change the effective gear ratio, etc. It's my understanding that in Stock class, tire size is fairly open so as long as it fits the wheel and is within the fender (that's just the jist of it). I'm not exactly limited to running a 185, 195, or a 205 size, right?

I think he was referring to the idea that once you change wheel diameters (in your case 15->14), the range of available tires is different; therefore, you may or may not have different gear ratio possibilities since there is a different tire selection. Of course, in your case, I think the variety of good tires & sizes may actually be worse.

Expanding on that, someone else in a stock class may want to go from 18 -> 17 size, which could potentially create new gear ratio tuning possibilities based on tire sidewall height that was not possible w/ the 18" wheels because of different tire selection availability in 17 vs 18. slippery :barf: slopes

[Jesus Saucedo]

mr infamous QVD! !
Aren't you supposed to be in the Fountain Valley area? hehe

Ahh ok. I get that, with the tire size availabiltiy. makes sense That's so true, though. Not many options in 14" vs 15" tires.

Thanks for that input too

[Jayson Woodruff]

Ahh ok. I get that, with the tire size availabiltiy. makes sense That's so true, though. Not many options in 14" vs 15" tires.

Yeah, BUT, there's more options availible to 15"+14" than there is to 15" alone.
With gear ratios, I'm thinking you can find 14" tires with a shorter overall diameter than 15". Which then makes an effective gear ratio avaible to you that wasn't before, but year the reality of your case would be not finding a sticky tire.

Jay W

[George Gage]

[quote="John Stimson"]George: I think that the MINI Cooper "phone dial" wheels are super light 15x5.5" 4x100 bolt pattern wheels. It's going to be tough to find an aftermarket 15x5.5" wheel. Most manufacturers start at 15x6.5" and get wider from there. If you want a narrower wheel, you would be looking at a high end wheel made specifically for racers that feel they absolutely must have a lighter wheel in a stock size regardless of cost. /quote]

Wow. Thanks for the tip on the Cooper wheels, John. The good news for now is that HS has lots of Japanese cars running and people are pretty close. It'll be interesting to se who can give Mr. Jardine a run for his money ;) In all seriousness, t's just nice to see a field forming.

As to gearing, the way I read this is that smaller wheels would effectively be equivalent to lower, torquier gearing. This is what you all meant, right?

Again, hope to see you out there, Jesus, and thanks to the more experienced guys for their input.

GGage

[John Stimson]

About gearing:

The effective gearing depends on the rolling radius of the tire. If there are three different tire sizes you can use with a 15" wheel, and three other sizes you can use with a 14" wheel, then being able to run either size wheel probably gives you more options for choosing a rolling radius that gives you the "best" gearing.

Having a smaller diameter wheel does not guarantee a shorter gearing option. However, it can allow shorter gearing because tire manufacturers seem to have a minimum sidewall height that they will use, and if you can get a tire with the shortest possible sidewall for the smaller diameter wheel, there's no way you can get effective gearing that short with a larger diameter wheel.

[Jesus Saucedo]

jay: hehe... i hope i find a decent sticky tire. sticky tires sound like so much fun. I'm tired of sliding around with all-season tires!

George: Yeah man, you WILL see me out there. Just not mid-march. I'm out of town. And don't worry too much about Mr. Jardine. He's a great guy, but Paul Wehrman sometimes wins. I forget who else. Paul's a great guy too. -- Hey, any chance you can find a girl to drive your Versa as well? Maggie is usually alone, in HSL. My girl in the Yaris will be joining her at some events too

[Craig Naylor]

Craig, please read section 8.3 of the Solo Rules and come back and let me know what it says. (I'll concede that I have to add the chief steward to the list of people you'd have to convince not to protest you, although I don't think it would be a breach of ethics not to notify the chief steward of the nonstandard wheel size).

While you may have a point in section 8.3 on the Car directly, 8.1 allows any entrant or driver to place a protest, against any other event or driver. So if not against a car directly in another class, one can protest the driver for unsportsmanlike conduct. Now such a protest would need a reason for such a claim, and that reason could be an illegal car.

That said, I don't recall that being the way some protests were made that I referred to above, but fair warning and a request to make changes had been attempted. So the "defendant" would need to know section 8.3 to potentially toss the protest if filled on the car directly.

[John Stimson]

While you may have a point in section 8.3 on the Car directly, 8.1 allows any entrant or driver to place a protest, against any other event or driver. So if not against a car directly in another class, one can protest the driver for unsportsmanlike conduct. Now such a protest would need a reason for such a claim, and that reason could be an illegal car.

If I were on a protest committee, and someone not in the class protested a car over a car prep rule, I would look at 8.3 and toss it out. Trying to get around the clear restriction of 8.3 by disguising it as a "sportsmanship" protest is a tortured interpretation, and we could use a lot less of those in this sport. Having an illegal modification is not inherently unsportsmanlike, particularly if the owner has notified everyone in the class of the variance and gotten their approval.

[Jayson Woodruff]

]If I were on a protest committee, and someone not in the class protested a car over a car prep rule, I would look at 8.3 and toss it out. Trying to get around the clear restriction of 8.3 by disguising it as a "sportsmanship" protest is a tortured interpretation, and we could use a lot less of those in this sport. Having an illegal modification is not inherently unsportsmanlike, particularly if the owner has notified everyone in the class of the variance and gotten their approval.

Regionally we're all competing aginst one another in the team competition.

Jay W

[Craig Naylor]

]If I were on a protest committee, and someone not in the class protested a car over a car prep rule, I would look at 8.3 and toss it out. Trying to get around the clear restriction of 8.3 by disguising it as a "sportsmanship" protest is a tortured interpretation, and we could use a lot less of those in this sport. Having an illegal modification is not inherently unsportsmanlike, particularly if the owner has notified everyone in the class of the variance and gotten their approval.

Regionally we're all competing aginst one another in the team competition.

Jay W

Additionally as a region we also have a Regional award for best paxed results over the year.

[John Stimson]

Fair enough. That's a complication that I haven't dealt with before, coming from a region that had neither formally recognized team competitions nor overall PAX awards.

But looking at the language, just because it could impact those results doesn't allow a protest: 8.1 is for protests against people: a decision, act, or omission that they made. 8.3 is for protests against cars, and it only allows for people in the same class at the same competition to file a protest against a car.

If it is important that someone outside of a class be permitted to protest a car for the purposes of the overall PAX or team competitions, you really need to have that in the supplemental rules for the region.