Can Diesel Ever Become Fashionable In The U.S.?

[Michael Palero]

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/autob ... _ever.html

[Mako Koiwai]

I was very impressed with the Audi A6 Diesel Turbo I rented in Germany. Very fast, smooth and quiet. One wouldn't know one was driving a Diesel. Pretty much instant on. Huge torque ... easily cruised the autobahn at 200 kph, and still had to move over for the really fast cars. Terrific mpg ... thank goodness, since fuel is REALLY expensive over there!

[Kurt Rahn]

Ooooooooooh! The Europäischer Hof...you must get good expenses from your employer.

[Ramy Mattar]

2 Great cars that are not coming to the US, anyone can tell me why?

(sorry for not using Tiny URL)


http://blog.wired.com/cars/2008/09/vws-prius-killi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/co ... s_innovate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Mako Koiwai]

The Europäischer Hof.

We lived in Heidelberg for something like 20 years. When we did a "farewell" visit for my mom, we stayed at the Hof ... something she always wanted to do. Very nice in a Old School sort of way ... although my bathroom must have been redone in the '70's - Op Art style! Food was of course fabulous.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

The 335d should change a few minds. It won't be like the sooty, stinky M-B diesels of the '70s and '80s.

Even the new F-250 is quieter, cleaner and has barely a whiff of diesel. I'd rather have a TDI than a Prius, but that's just me.

[Robert Puertas]

I too have enjoyed driving diesel rental cars my last few trips to Europe.
They are powerful, quiet and very efficient.

I agree that as cars like the BMW 335d and Audi TTdi (and whatever Honda brings over) become available here, people will come to embrace them. Then the floodgates will open for things like the new Fiesta. It's a pity the geniuses at Ford can't be more forward thinking. But what do you expect from a company who's halo car has a solid rear axle.

Diesel just makes so much more sense than the current crop of battery cars.

[Steve Lepper]

The fundamental problem (ignoring outside factors like refining capacity) is two different views on emission regulation: the Europeans believe CO2 is evil, where the U.S. regulation is focused on particulates. Since CO2 is directly tied to the amount of fuel burned, European cars are engineered to deliver maximum economy. To meet USEPA/CARB standards, manufacturers have to add either a Urea system or (the cheaper but seriously flawed) trapping catalyst. Look at current full-size pickups to see how well that works: instead of getting 50% or better mileage than their gasoline counterparts, the new "clean" Diesels only get a couple more mpg. It's awfully tough to get good mileage when you have to pour raw fuel down the tailpipe every so often to clean your emission system.

Here are a couple of real-world examples gathered from a few of my friends and customers:
'03 F550 6.0 Powerstroke (converted to a pickup): 15mpg unloaded. This was traded in for an '08 F450 6.4 Powerstroke (same cab/bed/WB/axle): 10mpg. Equivalent truck w/gas engine: 9mpg.
'02 GMC Duramax/Allison combo: 18-20mpg. He replaced it with a same body style (CC/LB) '08 Chevy: 11-12mpg. Only Chevy owner I know has an '02 8.1: it's 10 mpg everywhere he goes.

So, what's the benefit? A Diesel powertrain costs significantly more up front, but emission regulation removes any mileage advantage these vehicles had. And, this is before taking the higher price of Diesel fuel into account. Unless there is a change in the regulatory climate (doubt it) Euro Diesels modified for the American market will disappoint and, like last time, will return to their homelands after only a short time here. It's really unfortunate... they have some really neat cars over there. I've driven several Euro-spec Diesels (BMW, MB, and others) here locally (they had been imported here for testing) and thought they were terrific and worked well under our driving conditions. I'd love to have a late-model, TD LandCruiser for my family/tow vehicle.

[William Chen]

Steve, very well written.

another problem is urea.

think about it: Mercedes says you need about 8 gallon of urea at every oil change. my guess is that will run about $100 (probably more because it is an European urea . let's say you change oil every 7.5k miles. on a diesel that gets 30mpg. it means urea is costing you 10% of fuel cost. so you should subtract another 10% off the MPG figure. if it is oil and urea change every 15k miles, it is then 5% of fuel cost.

[Kurt Rahn]

Mercedes says you need about 8 gallon of urea at every oil change.

Couldn't you just pee into the exhaust pipe every now and then?

Sorry, I couldn't resist. Bad boy!

[Michael Palero]

So, what's the benefit? A Diesel powertrain costs significantly more up front, but emission regulation removes any mileage advantage these vehicles had.

Maybe you should look further than trucks...?

$21,990 MSRP on the 2009 Jetta TDI
A similarly equipped gasoline jetta is priced at $19,990.

AMCI tested the TDI Jetta and achieved 38mpg city 44mpg highway.
The EPA rating for the 2.5L gasoline Jetta is 21/29

[Bob Beamesderfer]

Steve, the reduction in mileage for clean diesel is overstated and theoretical, making it meaningless.

As for urea, not all clean diesels use it. As for the amount, well, if you can afford a Mercedes ... As for the BMW, I'd bet the urea is another freebie along with the oil changes included in the first X miles.

[William Chen]

$21,990 MSRP on the 2009 Jetta TDI
A similarly equipped gasoline jetta is priced at $19,990.

AMCI tested the TDI Jetta and achieved 38mpg city 44mpg highway.
The EPA rating for the 2.5L gasoline Jetta is 21/29

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/21/offi ... -30-41mpg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
TDI Jetta is 30/41

[Michael Palero]

TDI Jetta is 30/41

William, those are the EPA numbers which don't match AMCI's real world numbers.
http://media.vw.com/article_display.cfm ... e_id=10337

[Bob Beamesderfer]

$21,990 MSRP on the 2009 Jetta TDI
A similarly equipped gasoline jetta is priced at $19,990.

AMCI tested the TDI Jetta and achieved 38mpg city 44mpg highway.
The EPA rating for the 2.5L gasoline Jetta is 21/29

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/21/offi ... -30-41mpg/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
TDI Jetta is 30/41

I'd also point out that autoblog is a poor source for factual information. And, up until now, the EPA hasn't spent a lot of time evaluating diesel mileage. Are they using the same tests from a decade or more ago?

[Earl Merz]

Here are a couple of real-world examples gathered from a few of my friends and customers:
'03 F550 6.0 Powerstroke (converted to a pickup): 15mpg unloaded. This was traded in for an '08 F450 6.4 Powerstroke (same cab/bed/WB/axle): 10mpg. Equivalent truck w/gas engine: 9mpg.
'02 GMC Duramax/Allison combo: 18-20mpg. He replaced it with a same body style (CC/LB) '08 Chevy: 11-12mpg. Only Chevy owner I know has an '02 8.1: it's 10 mpg everywhere he goes.

See, the problem here is the Unloaded milage. If you are buying that big of a truck(F550/F450) and run unloaded all the time, you deserve to be drawn and quartered. Those trucks are not ment to be basic transportation. Now, Compair loaded fuel milage between the diesel and gas P/Us. That is where the diesel pays off.

[John Coffey]

AMCI's real world

That's funny; using AMCI and Real World in the same sentence.

Now, Compair loaded fuel milage between the diesel and gas P/Us. That is where the diesel pays off.

Loaded 2000 Ford F350 (18,800 lb CGVW) V10 got 8.5 mpg driving 2,500 miles in 7 days across California, Arizona, and Nevada. Loaded 2001 Ford F350 (20,700 lb CGVW) Diesel got 7.2 mpg driving 2,500 miles in 7 days across California, Arizona, and Nevada. All documented on NSXFiles.com back in 2004.

[William Chen]

[I'd also point out that autoblog is a poor source for factual information.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/bymake/V ... 2009.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Steve Lepper]

Steve, the reduction in mileage for clean diesel is overstated and theoretical, making it meaningless.

As for urea, not all clean diesels use it. As for the amount, well, if you can afford a Mercedes ... As for the BMW, I'd bet the urea is another freebie along with the oil changes included in the first X miles.

Bob, the numbers I posted are actual fuel economies recorded by the owners of these vehicles... how is that theoretical? How much real-world data can you quote? And no, AMCI is not real world.

You've got a good point that urea will be a freebie at BMW dealers, and maybe others as well: when, as a manufacturer, your in-use emission compliance (and related warranty concerns) hinge on keeping that urea bottle topped up, you're going to make sure the customer can get it quickly and easily.

Earl brought up a good point about loaded mileage, so I called my friend with the Ford to ask him about it. He tows a 20K-pound 5th wheel (class A license) so is an extreme case study (considering an F250/350 SRW pickup has a gross combined rating of 2300 lbs, but his F450 is 33000!) He has been on the same cross-country trips with both old and new trucks: he reports that the old F550 averaged 8mpg, and the new F450 got 7.5. The new truck only had about 6K miles on it at the time, so it may improve a bit as the engine breaks in a bit more.

[Steve Lepper]

... And, up until now, the EPA hasn't spent a lot of time evaluating diesel mileage. Are they using the same tests from a decade or more ago?

The old EPA 74/75 tests haven't been used for a couple of years now. These days, everything is certified using US06.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

Steve, the reduction in mileage for clean diesel is overstated and theoretical, making it meaningless.

As for urea, not all clean diesels use it. As for the amount, well, if you can afford a Mercedes ... As for the BMW, I'd bet the urea is another freebie along with the oil changes included in the first X miles.

Bob, the numbers I posted are actual fuel economies recorded by the owners of these vehicles... how is that theoretical? How much real-world data can you quote? And no, AMCI is not real world.

You've got a good point that urea will be a freebie at BMW dealers, and maybe others as well: when, as a manufacturer, your in-use emission compliance (and related warranty concerns) hinge on keeping that urea bottle topped up, you're going to make sure the customer can get it quickly and easily.

Those trucks you quote mileage figures for are not built to the passenger car standard. The mileage achieved with heavy duty trucks of various configurations has little to do with what a passenger car will achieve.

And what world does AMCI's over the road tests exist in? I spent three days driving during one of their tests and it was over the same freeways and in the same sort of traffic I've driven in while in the "real world."

Comparing the 1998 Jetta to 2009 model, the EPA estimates show less than 10% lower mileage for the new model. But the point with diesel isn't just the fuel economy, it's also the longer life of the engines.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

[I'd also point out that autoblog is a poor source for factual information.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/Feg/bymake/V ... 2009.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yeah, I saw they linked to the EPA site. However, Autoblog's track record remains poor and they've never corrected an error that I've seen.

[Steve Lepper]

Steve, the reduction in mileage for clean diesel is overstated and theoretical, making it meaningless.

As for urea, not all clean diesels use it. As for the amount, well, if you can afford a Mercedes ... As for the BMW, I'd bet the urea is another freebie along with the oil changes included in the first X miles.

Bob, the numbers I posted are actual fuel economies recorded by the owners of these vehicles... how is that theoretical? How much real-world data can you quote? And no, AMCI is not real world.

You've got a good point that urea will be a freebie at BMW dealers, and maybe others as well: when, as a manufacturer, your in-use emission compliance (and related warranty concerns) hinge on keeping that urea bottle topped up, you're going to make sure the customer can get it quickly and easily.

Those trucks you quote mileage figures for are not built to the passenger car standard. The mileage achieved with heavy duty trucks of various configurations has little to do with what a passenger car will achieve.

And what world does AMCI's over the road tests exist in? I spent three days driving during one of their tests and it was over the same freeways and in the same sort of traffic I've driven in while in the "real world."

Comparing the 1998 Jetta to 2009 model, the EPA estimates show less than 10% lower mileage for the new model. But the point with diesel isn't just the fuel economy, it's also the longer life of the engines.

Bob, I know you've got a lot of experience writing about cars, but what I don't know is, how much experience do you have actually testing them? Me, I only worked in the magazine business a few years, but I've been testing cars for twenty. If they would share their test plan with me ( but they won't and I don't blame them) I would be happy to go through it and discuss it's "reality." I can create for you a "real world" test program that will give you just about any kind of data you would like to see for your new product. Don't get me wrong here... this is not a knock against AMCI. They're a good group that I've known since back when I used to share track time with Jim Wangers at Carlsbad Raceway (am I really that old?) They're just doing their job.

[Bob Beamesderfer]

Bob, I know you've got a lot of experience writing about cars, but what I don't know is, how much experience do you have actually testing them? Me, I only worked in the magazine business a few years, but I've been testing cars for twenty. If they would share their test plan with me ( but they won't and I don't blame them) I would be happy to go through it and discuss it's "reality." I can create for you a "real world" test program that will give you just about any kind of data you would like to see for your new product. Don't get me wrong here... this is not a knock against AMCI. They're a good group that I've known since back when I used to share track time with Jim Wangers at Carlsbad Raceway (am I really that old?) They're just doing their job.

Every car I wrote a full review on was tested within the reasonable limits of driving on a public highway and mileage was tracked. Every car we had in house for testing was driven by each of the road test editors, there were four of us. These were consumer-oriented reviews, not certifications.

But tou didn't really answer the question. I drove all three of the test vehicles, along with two other people -- Kyle Williams and James Yom -- over the same test route, three days in a row. The test was longer than that, but I was hired as temp for three of five days. Leave El Toro at 9 a.m. north 5 to 57 to 210 to 15 to Barstow; back down the 15 to the 10 east to Palm Springs; west on the 10 to the 57 south to the 5 and back to El Toro. It was towing test, identical loads on identical trailers. Trucks refueled at the same gas pump before parking at El Toro. This wasn't running a vehicle on a dyno at 35 and 55 mph and then slapping fuel economy numbers on a report.

What isn't real about that?

[Earl Merz]

Now, Compair loaded fuel milage between the diesel and gas P/Us. That is where the diesel pays off.

Loaded 2000 Ford F350 (18,800 lb CGVW) V10 got 8.5 mpg driving 2,500 miles in 7 days across California, Arizona, and Nevada. Loaded 2001 Ford F350 (20,700 lb CGVW) Diesel got 7.2 mpg driving 2,500 miles in 7 days across California, Arizona, and Nevada. All documented on NSXFiles.com back in 2004.

John, they should have had a semi then. I averaged 9.4mpg with our freightliner with a cummins ISM. 9.4 average was over 265000 miles.

edit: fuel milage was checked daily(with log reports and IVMR), weekly(for our sake), monthly(for IFTA), quarterly(for IFTA), and annually(again for IFTA). example- Rolling to San Diego at 52klbs and comming back at 35klbs and still averaging 10.4mpg is damn good in my book.