November 2008 Fastrack

[Christine Grice]

http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastrack/ ... ck-nov.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Solo section only: http://www.scca.com/documents/Fastrack/ ... v-solo.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Aaron Goldsmith]

Huh.. that's it?

[Bob Pl]

So the "class change proposals", just kidding, they never really meant any of it? Or was that also a "clerical error"?

I don't get it, what's really going on?

[Aaron Goldsmith]

and no word on what what wrong that was approved by the BOD last fastrack?

[Randy Chase]

Noble kit cars in Stock (ref. 08-522) Per SAC: This is a kit car—customizable on customer request including any engine.

Really? That is not correct. Oh well. Wonder where they got their information.

Edit to say "never mind"... this is only about putting the Noble in stock class. It should not be in stock. Period.

But the engine thing is still wrong. I was told today by someone that is involved with Noble/Rossion... "There are not any Nobles (stock Nobles) anyway running any other engine than the stock engine."

"The Noble was a production car in the UK. Cars sold in the US had a recommended engine, produced by a single manufacturer. More than 217 of the 220 cars have engines built by AER to the Noble/Roush specfication. Replacement engines are still in production for the Rossion Q1, which uses the same basic frame set and identical running gear."

[Christine Grice]

and no word on what what wrong that was approved by the BOD last fastrack?

"The rules package forwarded by the SEB to the BOD, which was approved at the BOD’s September meeting was in error.
Specifically, under the STOCK CATEGORY heading, Item 8 is incorrect. The correct wording, is as follows:
ITEM 8)
Move from DS to GS: Chevrolet Cobalt SS Supercharged
Move from GS to HS: Honda Civic del Sol VTEC
This was simply a clerical oversight, and the SEB apologizes for any distress this may have caused the membership."

[Christine Grice]

So the "class change proposals", just kidding, they never really meant any of it? Or was that also a "clerical error"?

I don't get it, what's really going on?

I would think that it was a proposal and they got a lot of unfavorable member comments about it, then yeah they dropped it really quickly

[Bob Pl]

Thanks Christine & thanks for keeping us informed.

[Steve Ekstrand]

I saw the denial on the MR2 stock tires. I assume this was to allow 15" instead of the stock 14". I'm not sure how the proposal read, and I'm not going to search for it. Man, do these drugs make me tired.... And nauseous.... TMI..... It would seem reasonable to me to consider a stock rule that would allow a min 15" and max 18" wheel diameter allowance. So, you could replace a 14x6 with a 15x6. Or a 19x8 with an 18x8 or 20x8 with 18x8. The race tire selection range moves. Older cars and brand new edgey cars fall out of that range. Yeah yeah, I know the argument that that is part of the stock package when selecting a car. But its very unfriendly. And many new performance cars are excluded from play right now because of the tall wheels. A maker could always say they have an all season option for an 18" wheel and that car can play, but most can't...

Of course, the rule saves some people from themselves. I'd be running a Challenger in F-Stock if there were such a rule. And that would still suck....

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

I saw the denial on the MR2 stock tires. I assume this was to allow 15" instead of the stock 14". I'm not sure how the proposal read, and I'm not going to search for it. Man, do these drugs make me tired.... And nauseous.... TMI..... It would seem reasonable to me to consider a stock rule that would allow a min 15" and max 18" wheel diameter allowance. So, you could replace a 14x6 with a 15x6. Or a 19x8 with an 18x8 or 20x8 with 18x8. The race tire selection range moves. Older cars and brand new edgey cars fall out of that range. Yeah yeah, I know the argument that that is part of the stock package when selecting a car. But its very unfriendly. And many new performance cars are excluded from play right now because of the tall wheels. A maker could always say they have an all season option for an 18" wheel and that car can play, but most can't...

Of course, the rule saves some people from themselves. I'd be running a Challenger in F-Stock if there were such a rule. And that would still suck....

There was no proposal for any type of wheel allowance, it was a more detailed response to a member letter (to be more member friendly and hopefully answer the "why" when the SEB makes a decision).

Think of the cost to buy and test all the potential wheel/tire combos with an allowance like that. I know on my car it would be one more set of wheels and two sets of tires to buy and test. For others it could be much more. Sure once the hot recipe is figured out for a particular car it would be easier for the next guy, but with each new car it starts over. As it is now worst case you are testing whatever couple of sizes of tires you can cram on stock size wheels. You want to run an old car, you have to live with some disadvantages.

[Steve Ekstrand]

Jason-

Does the Rx-8 have a 19" option that's different width than the 18??? Just trying to figure out how that rule change would affect you in terms of trying different options.

It doesn't affect the super cars that much I guess because of ASP. But it sure does affect the SRT-8 cars, the new SRT-4. Possibly the new Camaro.

I hate 20" rims....

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

Jason-

Does the Rx-8 have a 19" option that's different width than the 18??? Just trying to figure out how that rule change would affect you in terms of trying different options.

It doesn't affect the super cars that much I guess because of ASP. But it sure does affect the SRT-8 cars, the new SRT-4. Possibly the new Camaro.

I hate 20" rims....

The 2009 RX-8 will have 19s, same width, my car only came with 18s. On my car I would test a 17X8 (to save weight) with a 245-45-17/275-40-17 oh and maybe a 245-40-17. Now with a 2009 I get to do the 17s, 18s and test two sizes of 19" tires.

Your proposal to allow 15-18 for everyone will effect every class. You now can play with gearing and tire widths that are offered by changing wheel diameter. The ONLY limiting factors are how deep your pockets are, and how big your brakes are.

Does not affect the upper classes.... So we can let the Z06 try 17" rears, better gearing. The Lotus could run a 15" rear with a 275 Hoosier. Every car, every class would be spending money to test the different combinations. Right now a competitor can show up with stock wheels and R tires and his biggest disadvantage might be his OE wheels are heavy (depending on the car), under your proposal he may be further behind the curve because he does not have the right diameter.

Thanks, not a can of worms I want to see opened so a couple of guys can run 4000lb+ wannabe muscle cars.

[Steve Ekstrand]

Jason-

You misunderstood me. What I was trying to say is a 15 min and an 18 max allowance. Not that EVERYBODY gets to play up or down an inch or run anything between 15 and 18.

If you have a 14 you can use the 15 min allowance. If you have a 19 or above you can take advantage of the 18 max allowance. A 19 doesn't get to do 17. And a 15-18 stock gets NOTHING.

I agree allowing a whole range of sizes to everybody would be lunacy. I never intended that. It just comes in to play to bring the fringe cars into the range of available tires.

Seems like a pretty simple solution if you want those cars outside the range to be able to play. You may not want them playing. I don't know... Not all of the cars are super exotic. The SRT-8's are affordable but all but excluded from stock class autocross because of the wheels. The Camaro may face the same fate from what I'm hearing (19's on the most powerful version). I know some 19's are available, I haven't looked lately. But I think its pretty light coverage. And really really expensive.

And I agree that 4000lbs wanna be muscle cars will be backmarkers in any case.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

Jason-

You misunderstood me. What I was trying to say is a 15 min and an 18 max allowance. Not that EVERYBODY gets to play up or down an inch or run anything between 15 and 18.

If you have a 14 you can use the 15 min allowance. If you have a 19 or above you can take advantage of the 18 max allowance. A 19 doesn't get to do 17. And a 15-18 stock gets NOTHING.

Seems like a pretty simple solution if you want those cars outside the range to be able to play. You may not want them playing. I don't know... Not all of the cars are super exotic. The SRT-8's are affordable but all but excluded from stock class autocross because of the wheels. The Camaro may face the same fate from what I'm hearing (19's on the most powerful version). I know some 19's are available, I haven't looked lately. But I think its pretty light coverage. And really really expensive.

I did not misunderstand... You did not say that. If the OEs chose form over function that is their problem, its not our place to fix their issues. I see no reason to further cloud the very thick rule book with an allowance for non-OE wheels sizes for any car in stock class.

[Glenn Duensing]

The Camaro may face the same fate from what I'm hearing (19's on the most powerful version). I know some 19's are available, I haven't looked lately. But I think its pretty light coverage. And really really expensive.

And I agree that 4000lbs wanna be muscle cars will be backmarkers in any case.

Camaro SS comes with 20's only

[Steve Ekstrand]

Going forward "sports cars" are going to get 19 and 20 rims, right or wrong. My friends at BMW are a little shocked I didn't order the 19's. They have chugged down the wagon wheel koolade.

Even if the tires start becoming available its a slow process and more tires at the top means less tires at the bottom. All while the prices get much more expensive.

Given the economy and the shrinking participation, I'd say the trend is a concern.

Maybe nobody cares about SRT-8's.... But I'd say the Camaro SS is a legitimate target audience car for Solo. Seems like we are missing the golden opp to have current model Mustangs, Camaros, and Challengers playing alongside each other. That would be good for the sport.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

Going forward "sports cars" are going to get 19 and 20 rims, right or wrong. My friends at BMW are a little shocked I didn't order the 19's. They have chugged down the wagon wheel koolade.

Even if the tires start becoming available its a slow process and more tires at the top means less tires at the bottom. All while the prices get much more expensive.

Given the economy and the shrinking participation, I'd say the trend is a concern.

Maybe nobody cares about SRT-8's.... But I'd say the Camaro SS is a legitimate target audience car for Solo. Seems like GM and Mopar are missing the golden opp to have current model Mustangs, Camaros, and Challengers playing alongside each other. That would be good for the sport.

Fixed that for you.
I agree, seems like the OEs keep making poor decisions. This happened with 16s, 17s, 18s and now 19s... As they keep going for looks, potential customers will have to wait for tires. bling bling.

[Steve Ekstrand]

The OEMs are idiots.
Just look at their bottomlines.

But they aren't going to make cars for us. When you're tossing $40Billion down the drain each year, you probably aren't too worried about massaging cars to fit the SCCA Solo rulebook.

But I think we should at least consider massaging our rulebook to be friendly to obvious automotive trends.

And while the tires will come eventually, are 19's and 20's in R-Compounds really something we want to push for? $$$$$$$$$$$ for a performance decrease?

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

The OEMs are idiots.
Just look at their bottomlines.

But they aren't going to make cars for us. When you're tossing $40Billion down the drain each year, you probably aren't too worried about massaging cars to fit the SCCA Solo rulebook.

But I think we should at least consider massaging our rulebook to be friendly to obvious automotive trends.

And while the tires will come eventually, are 19's and 20's in R-Compounds really something we want to push for? $$$$$$$$$$$ for a performance decrease?

Do you think 400-500 hp in a 4000lb+ wrapper is a performance increase over a 230hp 3rd gen fbody? You spend the money on a new car to autox and everyone else should feel sorry for you and let you buy cheaper tires? I say pound sand. You make your own choice to buy whatever car floats your boat, each car has its advantage and disadvantage, we don't make allowances for the others so why start here.

Whats next, lets save the mini guys some money by giving them more camber in stock so they don't kill tires. That is no different, you are suggesting help for cars that have a particular deficiency. No thanks.

[Steve Ekstrand]

Cling to those beliefs and get burned out on 3 hour work shifts as we run 45 person autocrosses in community college parking lots because we can't afford anything else.

And is there even a 20" R compound available? How soon til the 14" in stock class sizes goes away?

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

Cling to those beliefs and get burned out on 3 hour work shifts as we run 45 person autocrosses in community college parking lots because we can't afford anything else.

And is there even a 20" R compound available? How soon til the 14" in stock class sizes goes away?

Turn the clock back a few years and you are no different than the people who thought the sky was falling when the C5 Z06 was not allowed to run 17" rears, oh and then again when the C6 was not allowed to use an 18". WOW, how the hell did we survive that.

Is there a 20" R, YES: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp? ... ageLocQty=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How many competitive stock class cars still run 14"s? How long till those cars can not get the parts needed to keep them running in stock legal form?

p.s. there is going to be a number of open seats on the SEB, and other committees for 2009, send in your name so you can make this happen.

[Steve Ekstrand]

I see your points. I think its a good discussion now and then to look at the future of the sport in regards to trends in the industry and the marketplace. We're not beating them away anymore.

BTW-What divisions are going to be in need of SEB members? Or is placement "at large"???

Part of me would like to be an SEB despot. Part of me fears the work, time, and research component. Part of me fears constantly being wrong in public on a national scale. And of course, I really have ZERO knowledge about prep, mod, and kart stuff, though its probably impossible to ask people to have knowledge of every type of solo vehicle and category.

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

I see your points. I think its a good discussion now and then to look at the future of the sport in regards to trends in the industry and the marketplace. We're not beating them away anymore.

BTW-What divisions are going to be in need of SEB members? Or is placement "at large"???

Part of me would like to be an SEB despot. Part of me fears the work, time, and research component. Part of me fears constantly being wrong in public on a national scale. And of course, I really have ZERO knowledge about prep, mod, and kart stuff, though its probably impossible to ask people to have knowledge of every type of solo vehicle and category.

Constantly being wrong... I think I have shown you the flaws in your proposal, as well as the fact that there is already product available that makes your argument groundless. The hard part is continually dealing with narrow viewed members who only know I want, I need, it effects me - and who fail to see the big picture. }:)

The SEB is no longer going to be staffed by Division, in part due to the fact that SOPAC is continually lacking in people that want to get involved (this is why you had me for the last three years ), the other reason being it was the only board staffed that way. Now the SEB will be seven members, down from nine, and they can be chosen from the best candidates regardless of location. The flip side of this is now the Divisional Stewards, Glenn for us, will play a bigger role in reporting activity and trends within their Divisions.

[Steve Ekstrand]

Even when I disagree with you Isley, I think you're a great person for the SEB. If I limited my world to people who only agreed with me, it would be a lonely place.



Woohoo!

An expanded roll for Glenn!!!


:barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:

[Jason Isley BS RX8]

Even when I disagree with you Isley, I think you're a great person for the SEB. If I limited my world to people who only agreed with me, it would be a lonely place.



Woohoo!

An expanded roll for Glenn!!!


:barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:

People may or may not like Glenn or myself.... But you take what you get in a club driven by volunteers. Year after year he is one of the few who will continually take the jobs no one else wants.